Ed note: Given the amount of number pseudo-crunching I’ve seen apologists perform, I would like to reference the readers to the following explanation. You may or may not agree but it’s just as much a tug of war as using the ‘inner circumference’ argument.Ed ed note: Some people woefully take this article personally. Allow me to elucidate for those who have not managed to interpret my word correctly (ha). I am not bashing the Bible. I am not bashing Christianity as a whole. I am trying a reductio ad absurdum of the Creationist stance of Biblical Infallibility. That one can interpret the Bible in one way or another is beside the point.
Ed ed ed note: The Bible is a fantastic source of literary entertainment and a strong case can be made for secular biblical literacy lessons in schools as a complement to English Literature lessons since a lot of English Literature owes its heritage to biblical influence.
In other words, it’s a great piece of fiction. Some people misguidedly choose to base their life on the assumption that it’s absolutely true. Other people pick and choose from pieces which are actually moral (or in some cases, not all that moral – the Catholic Church’s stance on sex and homosexuality is an example of misguided morals), and dismiss the obviously inane as mythology.
That’s great. But there’s a point when I take great offense in the book which is when it’s forced down my throat. I choose to read the Bible like I read Greek mythology. That certain lobbyists try to hijack the education system by infiltrating the Bible in, not as a source of literary study, but as a source of ‘moral and scientific’ rectitude (whatever that means) is what provokes me into pointing out clear (or not so clear) discrepancies in the whole biblical infallibility thing.
I Kings 7:23-26
He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it – ten to a cubit. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea. The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths. (NIV)
The Bible is the word of God, yes? Anyone who claims otherwise is a heretic bastard.
Well look at this grave, grave offense to your beliefs.
Pi. π. 
The value for pi used in calculators is 3.141592654. But if we look at the word of God, it states that the ratio of the circumference to the diameter is 30:10 cubits. In other words:
3
Also known as 3.00 or 3.0. But here we have these self important mathematicians who believe they can improve on the word of God! What an effrontery. Biblical literalists, you are faced, as when with evolution, with an important dilemma if you wish to continue your peace of mind.
You can either accept that the word of God is fallible and men have improved upon it, therefore casting into doubt your claims of Creation.
Or you could hold steadfast to your God-given beliefs. Stand by in the face of scientific persecution and shout loud to the heavens that PI, goddammit, is equal to 3.0 because God said so.
Chances are if you’re not a hypocritical believer that you’ll take the second road. I’ve anticipated this, and I’ve made a partial list of all the things which you are going to have to forbid teaching in schools and universities if you want to preserve moral rectitude:
- Trigonometry
- Radians
- Complex numbers
- Circular motion
- Physics
- Electrostatic force
- Isotropic transmission
- …
I invite the readers to contribute to this list in order to make sure no further offenses to God’s word take place.
Interesting dilemma for biblical literalists: Either recant and accept the Bible is just a cute collection of bloodthirsty stories (Genesis included) or stand strong in face of the whole world of science and maintain that Pi = 3. Teach it in schools.
You can stop me here, now. You can say that “Ah, but if you look at the volume measurements and cook some of the values here and there you end up with Pi = 3.14, which is the modern version! QED, bitch!”. That the Bible doesn’t state that the value of Pi has no end is a testament to the fact that it was written by Middle East settlers in the BRONZE AGE. Clearly nobody expects the people who wrote the Bible to put down all of the digits of Pi – the book would be a greater pain in the ass than it is now if only out of sheer size. But a simple disclaimer, a simple Pi 3:23 “Oh yeah, but it has no end” or Numbers 1:1 “And God told Moses: ‘Pi, it hath no end’” or even I Kings 3:27 “And God rudely interjected: ‘Sorry guys, I forgot to mention, Pi is irrational’” would have done.
These stickers are for the public to use freely and paste over math textbooks the world over. Have fun!
EDIT: MY BAD PEOPLE, the previous stickers had the misleading approximation of 20/7 (which is an approximation to not very much, I’m afraid). I’ve corrected it. Carry on spreading the true value of Pi!
I love this, I’ve been on this bandwagon for ages now.
PI IS EQUAL TO EXACTLY 3.
Check out this coincidence, folks.
Apparently the variant spelling of the Hebrew word for “circumference” found in the I Kings text has a numerical value (”gematria”) of 111 versus the value of 106 for the usual spelling. So, factoring in this internally implied correction: 30 cubits x 111/106 = … well, you do the math….
There’s a piece at http://www.khouse.org/articles/1998/158/ with some details. There’s also an interesting thing on pi and e at http://www.khouse.org/articles/2003/482/
[...] Umfang = Durchmesser * Pi Ein Durchmesser von 10 Ellen bei einem Umfang von 30 Ellen ergibt: 30 = 10 * Pi -> Pi = 3.0 Hier gefunden. [...]
You could send this to the Blogs4Brownback guy (who wrote that heliocentrism is an atheist doctrine, because the Bible says the Earth doesn’t move).
Pi? Now I’m starving.
Well…. if it’s 30 cubits around, and 10 cubits across, then that *is* a ratio of pi… to one significant digit.
Just sayin’.
The better approximation is 22/7, not 20/7 as can be read on that note in the image. 20/7 is actually even less than 3.
[...] June 13th, 2007 [link][more] [...]
Just why would you expect the bible to say 31.4 cubits? It’s an approximation. If anything it proves at least one thing: the writer had some mathematical knowledge that goes beyond the time period.
I’ve corrected the stickers, my bad for that.
Monkey, as I wrote, I would not have expected the Bible to write down all the digits of Pi. I leave that for Creationists to do in future editions of the Bible text.
At the very least, God could have been omniscient/omnipotent enough to write that Pi is infinite.
Has anybody taken into account the fact that it says that the rim was a handbreadth in thickness? This could alter the measurements – if the circumference were measured along the inside of the rim rather than the outside, then your ratio would be less than 3.14 and closer to 3. I’m just saying The text is not specific for us to know exactly how where from and where to measurements were taken.
Come on, let’s not be total idiots, I guarantee you these people could measure the things they built; either it was measured differently to how we are assuming they measured or an approximation was used.
As an aside, I really wish atheists would get a life. If there is no eternal significance to life, we are all going to be dead in 100 years and none of this will matter. Why do atheists spend so much time caring what other people (who I guess are just conglomerations of atoms at the end of the day) think?
The text is alright if you don’t interpret it to the last fullstop. Honestly? I wouldn’t have even posted this if there were not elements in American society who campaign for the teaching of fairy tales as science in schools.
As an aside, I really wish faith-heads would stop using atheists as the universal punching bag. Why do religious people spend so much time obsessing about other people’s sins?
Not to be a prick, but seriously, how does this pertain to a literal/figurative interpretation of the bible? Any dumbshit knows that a cubit is an approximate measurement to begin with. It would be redundant to say about 30 cubits, because 30 cubits *is* about 30 cubits.
The diameter of 10 cubits is from outer rim to outer rim, the way anyone would measure a circular object. The circumference of 30 cubits, however, was of the inner circle, after subtracting the thickness of the brass (two handbreadths—one for each side) from which the bowl was made. This would be the number needed to calculate the volume of water.
Check for yourself.
Substitute the length of your cubit (elbow to longest fingertip) for the letter C in the following formula, and solve for H.
30C / p + 2H = 10C
The width of your handbreadth will be the result. For example, my cubit is 20 inches long. If I had built the brass bowl, the outer diameter would have a circumference of 600 inches (30 x 20 inches) and a diameter of 190.986 inches (600 inches / 3.14159). The difference between the two diameters is 9.014 inches (two of my handbreadths).
Option #2
They may have measured the bowl’s circumference under the lip and the diameter including the lip, which added enough to make 10 cubits across.
We don’t care what you think — we care when you advocate a change in policy based on those thoughts.
[...] de bijbel is PI = 3 God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit Gospel of Reason Bijbel – Koran: 0- 1 [...]
Again, you can cook numbers nicely and 3.14 will come out every time. That the Bible did not mention, even _hint_ at the irrationality of Pi is a testament to the fact that it cannot have been written/inspired by God and is therefore fallible.
If you take the Bible as what it really is, a vestige of literary exploration and stories, then it doesn’t matter at all.
But when you take it literally, then not only are you sticking your neck out incredibly far, but you risk the whole world of science as we know it. Just for a couple of decimal places.
lol funny
Lou- well said. I don’t care what people believe or don’t believe as long as it doesn’t affect me personally. I don’t care if you believe in flying spaghetti monsters, but if you try to rewrite the constitution because you think the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t like abortion, the fact (not theory) of evolution or gay marriage, *that* is when I have a problem.
Nice blog.
Please don’t turn this into a false dichotomy of “atheism or pi = 3″ please.
@Monkey, who wrote “the writer had some mathematical knowledge that goes beyond the time period.”
A kid with a STRING could have measured the circumference, wth. How is measuring something with a string “beyond the time period”?! It even SAYS “[...] it took a line [...]”
You were trying to be funny, right?
Looks like someone has too much time on their hands.
The world as we know it isn’t going to collapse based on this information, and anyways, who said scientists were infallible?
I want to see “biblicycles” that have wheels with the same geometry as the bible indicates.
If the faithful ride the biblicycles, and the seats are pretty hard, Darwin will solve the problem in no time (and they don’t believe in Darwin so they won’t be worried).
Stephen & kjhand:
Scientists are not infallible, that’s the beauty of scientific exploration.
All I’m doing is trying to point out the incredible failures of Biblical Infallibility. There are countless Christian denominations with far more sense in them than Biblical Innerancy. It’s not ‘atheism or pi = 3′. It’s ‘Biblical innerancy is a crock of horse shit’.
God is unfathomable and transcendental. Universal Constants are Gods numbers. Why would they be finite?
I don’t know, which is why I Kings 7:23-26 puzzles me.
[...] 13Jun07 there is nothing left to say. the entry speaks for itself. Filed under: fun, religion [...]
[...] Anyone who claims otherwise is a heretic bastard. [...]
God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit
This story has been submitted to Stirrdup. If it can generate enough interest, it will make it to the main page.
If the bible WAS ‘improved upon by men’… why didn’t somebody fix this…
I’m just sayin’…
Pathetic. If this stupid argument is the best you can do, then your position is pretty weak. Especially since a cubit is ABOUT 18 inches, and it was a general description of something, not an engineering schematic. It wasn’t telling you HOW to build one, it was telling you what it looked like. I suggest you being a pogrom against all history professors because you can lay money they don’t describe things in precise mathematical terms either. It’s not the PURPOSE of their instruction.
Please, stop spouting nonsense like this, it makes you look like an ignorant ass. Sort of like the guy in the previous talkback commenting on hard bicycle seats and evolution. Someone should have told him Lamarkism was discredited a hundred years ago.
@eltower: Good, because then I’m totally with you.
@frgough: And I say that saying the Bible doesn’t support evolution is just as silly as saying the the Bible says pi is 3. As a starter: where did the people in the city of Nod come from? Who was the mother and father of Cain’s wife? Who were the people God was protecting Cain from?
There’s too many faults in this argument for it to effectively be used. First, you’ve got the arguments regarding internal/external measurements. Plus, there’s this: pi isn’t equal to 3, but it’s also not equal to 3.141592654. You didn’t completely print the value of pi, just as the Bible didn’t. God wouldn’t have benefited humanity by telling us in 1000 B.C. that the value assigned to a theretofore nonexistent Greek letter is transcendental. That would’ve stolen Archimedes’ thunder 800 years later. Also, I would contend that “pi” is a man-made concept, and only useful to man-made mathematics (which describe the non-man-made world). It doesn’t have a unit, it’s simply a ratio. The ratio was always there, but it hasn’t always been useful, and it hasn’t always had a fancy Greek letter assigned to it.
Well if it’s in the bible then in must be true.
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit [...]
Timmy, I don’t claim to be the infallible word of God.
[...] is the correct venue for this. Suffice to say that I completely disagree with the idea of “God Said Pi=3” and another article on the same topic, sited by the other. Why don’t you site the [...]
…But what God was refering to in the Old Testament was just plain old apple pi. In the New Testament the Son of God gave us apple pi alla mode.
Too bad he didn’t replace the bulls too…All the methane from those bulls could be contributing to global warming.
Ah, there’s another nice approximation:
eπ – π = 20
or (if the above doesn’t come out nice)
ln(20 + pi) = pi
Approx .001% out.
Let’s remember that only wise men from the era of the bible are the only ones who can listen and interpret God. No so called “advancements” in science and spirituality should be accepted. So everybody sit down shut up, deal with your painfully oppressed lives (because suffering and sacrifice is good) and wait for the Jesus to come save you from it.
To make the stout claim that “God Said Pi = 3″ is a very ignorant and inaccurate assumption. There’s nowhere in the Bible that this is said. You merely make this assumption based on facts available, without realizing the difference between our finite world and an infinite constant.
“We cannot construct a perfect circle but we can compute the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of the perfect circle, pi, to a million or more decimal places with a very high certainty that we have done it correctly.”
http://www.mtnmath.com/pom.html
Could you please tell me where it says it is a perfect circle? Anything less than a perfect circle would make your argument groundless. It says “circular”. If we still are unable to construct a perfect circle, how could one have ever been constructed? For all we know, it could have been somewhat hexagonal, which would have fit the “circular” and “lily blossom” description as well as the measurements exactly.
Also, “pi” probably isn’t in the Bible because contemporary mathematical nomenclature didn’t exist when it was written. It is called “π” now because it is the first letter of the Greek word περιφέρεια (”periphery”).
This is beside the point, but don’t you think it would be a little unfathomable to have the infinite decimal representation of pi in a finite form? Or why would God feel people needed to know whether a measurement in a building plan was an infinite constant? I have yet to see any building blueprints showing pi as being infinite or grossly approximated beyond the decimal point and wouldn’t expect it to happen in the past. Your argument is irrelevant.
One other thing you gloss over is the fact that the circumference-pi formula was known in 950 BC, which is quite amazing to me. I find your argument very compelling, but fundamentally flawed when faced with reason.
pie equals yum
Bible thumping idiots and morons.
Travis, you are correct. The same can be said of the religious arguments against abortion, same-gender marriage, evolution, etc. Thanks for making the point obvious.
Ok moron. How exactly would the writer have described decimals to these simple people? Even better, since none of this was written in real time, how would that have been passed down?
Seriously, get the fuck over it. The bible isn’t suppossed to be literal…thats the point.
ITS A FUCKING STORY. Sure, maybe you can learn something from these stories, but to claim they got Pi wrong or the *whole* *world* was covered in water is just nit picking. Maybe it was *their* whole world that was covered in water. Was creation really literally 168 hours or was that just a way to explain the ELAPSE OF TIME?
Geez. Sometimes you guys are just as bad as the bible thumpers.
Please consider the basis of your argument, sir. You take a writers measurements that are approximations (e.g. cubit, handbreadth, etc.) and then try and disprove based on calculations not being exact.
Please remember that what you do to one side of an equation, you must do to both. So let’s replace “about” with +-.
+-30/+-10=+-3
If you want to replace the 3 with an exact figure, you will have to replace the 30 and 10 with exact numbers as well.
You can not state that this is “Cooking” or fixing the numbers. It is only applying mathmatical inteligence with regards to consistancy on both sides of the equation.
But yes, you are correct that if you remove the intelligence, your argument will stand.
Terrill Standifer
Why all those who want to interpret various ways that the Bible story might get us to 3.14…? What if the measurements are wrong, and other similar questions suggest that the words of the Bible are not exactly the truth. Just approximations of truth.
The point is, either the Bible is LITERALLY true, no interpretation necessary, because once that happens multiple interpretations can leave you with conflicting meanings, or that the Bible is not literal and we must bring our own reasoning and judgement to bear and that use that method to discern the truth.
Of course, the inconvenient thing about this for ID/Creationists, is that once we get multiple competing interpretations, how do we determine which, if any, is correct? Some of us use the scientific method. Others prefer to go based on revelation and what they’ve read from the Bible. I prefer the former, as it has been proven time and again to generate information that is predictable, repeatable, and therefore useful. The latter ultimately just leaves us with the “it’s God’s will” non-answer answer.
Ummm Pie…………[Homer]
@ My Mom:
“Seriously, get the fuck over it. The bible isn’t suppossed to be literal…thats the point.”
THANK YOU. That is the point. Now go get me a sandwich.
Regardless of the arguments for or against, you have to admit it is pretty funny.
Which bits of the bible are supposedly literal then? Surely it’s either all or none. It’s either a very bad story or the literal truth (sorry Truth). You can’t just pick and choose.
The bible never actually says that pi equals 3, that is nothing more than a misinterpretation. Visit http://www.recoveredscience.com/const303solomonpi.htm for the longer explanation of how ancient mathematics was much more accurate than it is typically given credit for.
@Brian: I fail to see how you equate geometry with moral issues. The Bible is clear about each of the items you presented anyways. Religious or not, there are such things as ethics in society and that is an entirely different discussion.
Let’s see:
As the writer for the Gospel of Reason, I contend the following of the Bible:
It’s a fantastic source of literary entertainment and a strong case can be made for biblical literacy in schools as a complement to English Literature lessons since a lot of English Literature owes its heritage to biblical influence.
In other words, it’s a great piece of fiction. Some people misguidedly choose to base their life on the assumption that it’s absolutely true. Other people pick and choose from pieces which are actually moral (or in some cases, not all that moral – the Catholic Church’s stance on sex and homosexuality is an example of misguided morals), and dismiss the obviously inane as mythology.
That’s great. But there’s a point when I take great offense in the book which is when it’s forced down my throat. I choose to read the Bible like I read Greek mythology. That certain lobbyists try to hijack the education system by infiltrating the Bible in, not as a source of literary study, but as a source of ‘moral and scientific’ rectitude (whatever that means) is what provokes me into pointing out clear (or not so clear) discrepancies in the whole biblical infallibility thing.
@Brian Actually, the Bible is pretty explicit with regards to same-sex relationships, both in the Old and New Testament. Two entire cities were destroyed because of their homosexual practices, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 speaks to the fact that homosexuals will not enter heaven.
@Stephen There’s nothing in the Bible that indicates that God didn’t create a whole large group of people that lived outside the Garden of Eden. There’s also nothing that indicates that Adam and Eve didn’t have children prior to Cain, Abel and Seth.
Because the purpose of the Bible is to instruct as to the way to receive eternal life, the people of Nod and Cain’s in-laws don’t really matter. It would be like needing backstory in EVERY book you read, regardless of its relevance to the purpose of the book.
Looking that intently serves only to detract from the message of salvation whose ground work was laid from the beginning.
[...] = 3. Lo pone en la Biblia Hoy vamos a ser un poco críticos después de leer éste post “God said Pi = 3; Stand by your beliefs dammit” o lo que sería lo mismo en cristiano “Dios dijo que Pi = 3; apoya tus creencias [...]
Evolutionists get more disparate every day. This “attack” if you can call it that, is a prime example of the logic employed by evolutionists.
The Bible is accurate in EVERYTHING, historical and scientific. The problem with your childish attack is that pi is an irrational number (a mathematical term which means it cannot be expressed as a fraction). If God were to give the actual values, the Bible would need an INFINITE number of pages to just write down the diameter or the circumference. Clearly, this is not practical. If the evolutionist would care to read more carefully he/she would see that the molten sea had a BRIM. It’s diameter is measured from one edge of the BRIM to the other, while the circumference is measured “round about” the sea _under_ the brim. Since God cannot lie (writing 3.1416 is NOT pi, it’s a shortened version we use for convenience), he expressed the dimensions of the sea using rational integers, easily understood by all. This, as with all alleged “contradictions” or “problems”, is not a problem at all, and, as is the case much of the time, is a failure in reading comprehension.
FYI – For a better idea of what exactly a “sea” is, here is the definition from Websters 1828 dictionary….
“1. A large bason, cisternor laver which Solomon made in the temple, so large as to contain more than six thousand gallons. This was called the brazen sea, and used to hold water for the priests to wash themselves. 1 Kings 7. 2 Chron. 4″
@eltower
“That certain lobbyists try to hijack the education system by infiltrating the Bible in, not as a source of literary study, but as a source of ‘moral and scientific’ rectitude (whatever that means) is what provokes me into pointing out clear (or not so clear) discrepancies in the whole biblical infallibility thing.”
Obviously, and I really am on your side with this one. But here’s the point. When you attack The Bible instead of the idiots who ram it down your throat with petty arguments like they missed a couple of decimal points, you only further their agenda.
By using your “superior intellect” to debunk The Bible’s version of Pi, you are merely flaunting your ignorance.
Honestly, I have a theory that traces all of this horse shit to one simple word….NUCULER.
ITS NUCLEAR YOU MORON! By letting that idiot get away with that we validated every half baked moron with some misguided opinion spewing “science” out of his ass.
Now clean your room.
Mom, I’d rather resort to intellectual debate than to ad hominem or personal attacks on ID proponents.
That I’m resorting to Pi = 3.0 is merely representative of the closed mindedness of the Creationist side. They’ve been trounced, over and over again to the point where I can only amuse myself further by watching their wigs spin as I use reductio ad absurdum attacks.
The root of the Nuculer problem is that the current, Websters, model of English semantics is incomplete and lacking in evidence. Websters changes all the time. When will it end?
Religious Buffoons:
Stay out of my schools and I’ll stay out of your church.
Deal?
Phoenician, could you just link to where you ripped that from instead please? I’d rather not have a comment column the length of Wyoming.
If thats the “craziest” thing you can dig up in the old testiment, you must be mildly retarded.
But if you insist on being mildly retarded I’ll give you a tardy treat and pat you on the head. You sure showed those people who believe in a higher power.
pi is usually written as 22/7ths. Even Egyptians from the Old Kingdom used 8/9 x 2, a value which is almost exactly 3.16 in decimal notation…
Perhaps cubits are like integers and there are no partial cubits, so this was the best approximation possible, lol. “The world has been defined using integer math, NO FLOATING POINT ALLOWED!”
Not a well-thought-out argument. This will make a great example for someone pushing the Bible as to why “science and atheism” is flawed, and how a postulation that’s claimed to be based on real facts instead of superstition or tradition can be shot down by its own methods.
If you look at the 2nd response from Dan, you will see that if the original language of the text is translated properly, the number referenced is 111, not 106, and thus we would get an approximation for pi that is more accurate than the one we use in classrooms today. Or one can reference the Phoenician’s insight about the inner rim and once again get a very close approximation which makes the whole Pi = 3 argument look a little silly.
I am truly sorry for anyone and for everytime that the Bible has been rammed down your thoat. In my belief that is not the purpose of the Bible, nor is it written to be an all encompassing scientific or historic textbook. It was written to convey messages, concepts, to the readers of its time, and to be used by those that follow to continue understanding those messages. The further removed we become from the time in which they were written, the more work and study has to be done to understand them by those of the current time.
There is a big difference in believing that the Bible is infallible in speaking to the purpose for which it was written (understanding of spiritual things) and believing it is trying to teach the calculus and nuclear physics in its pages.
If I pick up a book that is trying to teach me the correct usage of nouns and verbs, should I scour that book for mathematical knowledge? No. I should use it to learn about the subject about whch it was written to teach me. I understand that some claim the Bible can teach all things at once. But there are many of us who feel that is a misguided use of the Word. It is also misguided to try to force anyone to believe.
Ultimately, arguments like Pi=3 will change no one’s mind. There is probably some “misguided” in all of us… good luck!
@thiilguyin:
Religious buffoons in the US would probably go along with this compromise if they didn’t have to help pay for your schools.
hey thats good. FINALLY some way to get back at those damn scientists for all their lies and manipulations! they can have their damn computers, give me dogmatism!
@eltower (and HisMom)
Man. You guys are obviously looking at them same thing from different angles or different things from the same angle.
It is obvious to me, HisMom, that the author of this article CLEARLY was using satire and irony. Thereby, getting his point across more CLEARLY. The CLARITY of the tone of the article should have been CLEAR to you.
…(leaves)…
…(comes back)…
Oh, and eltower, get a life. Watch some soap opera or Dr Phil or something during the day. Trying to educate people always ends in tears, my boy.
Hi!
I liked your post! Very well written! It made me write an article dealing with this subject on my blog and my opinion on it, based on an ideea I had a while ago:
http://andreivajnaii.blogspot.com/2007/06/pi-is-not-constant-or-curvature-of.html
[...] God can’t do math Hey, neither can I! [...]
My translation states, “…it was round all about…”. Round does not equate to a circle. End of story. =)
And teh lord spakethz: “LOL”
The Bible also says we can have slaves from neighboring lands.
I want some hot Canandian girls.
’cause the Bible says so!
Really great post. You’ve got all those Bible-thumpers in a bind.
If they accuse you of it being just an artifact of the time (no decimal points yet) then you can come back and say that anything stated in the Bible is up for scrutiny by modern science.
If they come up with some convoluted explanation for why the Bible is infallible and that you’re deliberately misconstruing it by taking it literally to serve your own purposes then you can come back and say, “yeah, that’s what people do with the Bible, right?”
Great find.
I’d like to chime in to say that the Bible is not a science textbook. What I mean by that is that the Bible is a story that explains things to people in ways that they can understand them. I think for all intents and purposes with the Israelites, this approx. was good enough to convey a description of the temple. I do not believe the purpose of this description is to teach math.
With that being said, I think the crux of this argument is really on the measurement of a cubit. Because honestly, a cubit is not a standard measuring and is an approx in itself. Around the length of ones elbow to the tip of their finger. If the purpose of this description is to describe the temple of God then I think it was done well. You understand that the Sea was circular and in cubits it measured around 3 to 1 nothing wrong with that. I don’t think you need to bring repeating decimals into an approximation.
To all the people sending me to get a life: I bid you good luck on recovering from your sarcasm-ectomies.
I think My Dad got it pretty well.
Me esperaba de todo menos que me hablases en Español, te lo juro, ha sido como quedarme sentado como un tonto leyendo tu comentario.
Vamos, creo que es obvio el tema del creacionismo, es tan tremendamente absurdo el hecho de creer en la Biblia a pies juntillas que sólo y únicamente te podías referir a algo tan evidente como el creacinismo.
Lo único que te puedo decir es que como diría mi abuelo. Dejémoslos, son felices haciendo lo que hacen.
I couldn’t believe that your comment was in spanish, I didn’t even wait for you to leave a comment at all.
I think it’s so obvious that you are talking about creationism, It’s so unreal and odd to just believe the things that bible say by heart that you could only be referring to the most stupid of all biblical theories that I know. Creationism.
Well, the only thing that I could point out is the ol’ words of my granpa: Let them be, they are happy doing what they do.
Thanks for the comment, It is nice to know that I’m not a lonely mad guy and that so many other people think the way I do.
Suerte y nada, que te seguiré por la blogosfera
The simplest possible clash between the seemingly different worldviews of religion and science may be found in the value of pi. However, the Torah does not say pi = 3, TRANSLATIONS of the Torah say pi = 3.
I am sure that 99 % of the people reading about pi = 3 have never in their life ever seen an authentic Torah Scroll.
This url will take you to a line in Genesis VII.17
http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=1&chapter=8&verse=17&portion=2
The blue lines give the vocalization ” Kree ” and the black lines gives the text ” Ksiv”. If you look carefully at the third line from the end of the blue, second to last word from the end of the line you will see a little circle. Now go to the same word in the black and there is no circle. This is called a kree( apparent) /ksiv ( true)which means that the word is not read ( kree) the way it is written (ksiv). When you go to I Kings VII.23 there is a different kree/ ksiv.
In the Hebrew language letters have numerical equivaents and it comes out that the I Kings VII.23 gives the value of pi as 3 times 111/106. Thus the Torah agrees with modern science to four decimal places.
Also, the two stories of creation in Genesis 1:1-31 and 2:3-24 sharply differ in the use of two different verbs for the act of creation: “Va’yivra Elokim et ha’adam” (Genesis 1:27, And Elokim created [ex nihilo] the man) and “Va’yitser Havaya Elokim et ha’adam afar min ha’adama” (Genesis 2:7, And the L-rd G-d formed the man of dust of the ground). The concept of formation is clearly not ex nihilo.. Whereas the first account of creation is a creationist story, the second account is an evolutionary story.
The two accounts of creation unify the seemingly contradictory viewpoints of scientific creationism with evolutionary theory. In this unified view, macroevolution is clearly attributed to the Creator, whereas “formation,” the completion of the creative process described by science as microevolution, can be accounted for by natural selection. This Torah view of creation further shows that the major mutations that drive the evolutionary process are positive mutations, which act at the top of the evolutionary ladder (as opposed to the view of evolutionary theory, in which mostly negative mutations introduce variation from the bottom up).
The evolution of consciousness is the next major change operating at the forefront of the evolutionary process. As we become ever more conscious of the Creator, our faith in, and love for the Creator increase. Humans are G-d’s partners in the creative process, and the emergence of humans conscious of the continuous re-creation of the world ex nihilo anticipates the fulfillment of the purpose of creation.
Oh my! What did I do for light reading before the advent of blogs??? Thanks for conversation material for the next boring luncheon, wedding or dinner party.
This is great stuff!
Nice attempt, and funny to boot, but unfortunately the others are correct in that the argument has made an illogical jump from approximations to exactitude on only one side of the equality.
And it is strange that so many atheists should spend so much time fighting the christians, when according to their separate world-views, only the latter has a real interest in the other. It plays into the christian world-view, and doesn’t really accomplish much for the other side, however fun the intellectual acrobatics might be.
[...] Regular Schedule Kicks In Again Before any more armchair theologians pummel my article on Biblical Pi, allow me to elucidate on the reasons why I tackled it this [...]
I cannot imagine this debate taking place anywhere except in America. God bless America. How come time is GMT ?
Pierre JC Allard
I always hear 22/3. Try 355/113.
The Gospel of Reason runs on GMT +1, which is the geographical location of its writer.
…. God is so cool he keeps sending newer and newer versions of his book to keep up with it. You want to believe in God and his PI=3 very welcome you are. You want to stop teaching ur kids “science” very welcome you are. You would probably want to go sit under a tree and wait for your nirvana, while i go get a red-bull and do what i do best, and what i like best … explore and appriciate the beauty of God so great who doesnt need to send newer and newer versions of his books … especially written by … well we know who!
Given the definition of a cubit:
“An ancient form of measure, equivalent to the length from a Pharaoh’s elbow to the farthest fingertip of his extended hand.”
…I don’t think the writer of Kings was striving for mathematical precision. Therefore:
He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring about ten Pharaoh forearm lengths from rim to rim about five Pharaoh forearm lengths high. It took a line of about thirty Pharaoh forearm lengths to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it – about ten to a Pharaoh’s forearm lengths. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea. The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths.
So,
3 and about 1/14th a Pharaoh’s forearm length = Pi = silly.
Who cares what the actual value of a cubit is? We’re talking about a ratio…
The unit is on both sides of the equation and cancels out, much like the factor of 10, so it’s really a question of measurement precision and accuracy. It could be “about 18 inches” or “about 42 light years”…
Let c be the measurement of a Cubit.
30c = 10c * Pi (divide both sides by 10)
3c = 1c * Pi (divide both sides by c)
3 = Pi
Pi = 3 no matter how you cut it, as long as the subject is consistent with measurements. Since God isn’t capable of screwing up, you’d expect him to get such a simple measurement right.
And besides, this is the word of God we’re talking about, so it doesn’t matter who wrote it down. If you can’t trust the people who wrote it down, then you can’t trust any of it.
BTW, this was in the top 10 Doggdot.us section of my iGoogle homepage. Nice read. Good job. Pi is delicious.
good going tho… i love the satire.
teh ishoo has ben delt wif:
http://loljesus.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/227thz/
Oh yeah, one more thing… it is a part of Christianity to spread the word of God to the non-believers.
In this way, it is much like a virus.
If the influence of Christianity in our governmental affairs (education, etc.) continues I will end up home schooling my children and possibly moving to a less fanatical country.
Great post!! I’m with you on everything. All these pussnuts who give a crap about π and the Bible need to go back and actually read the bible, paying special attention to the NEW TESTAMENT, not the Old Testament where God is some kind of ego maniacle wrathmeister. If that doesn’t cool you out then read up on your Joseph Campbel, at the very least rent “The Power Of Myth”. Try actually gaining enlightenment from research, not Jerry Fallwell.
Now, on to more important things, how can I get a certain family member of mine to stop badgering me about certain religious issues, when I’ve made it perfectly clear that I am not a “believer”?? SRSLY, it never ends. Just when I think its stopped, another EMAIL comes in!! I’m being belittled and hounded by EMAIL, not the phone, not a hand written letter, but EMAIL!! NO, I cannot just tell this person to go f*ck themselves, and NO I can’t just have a rational discussion. Remember, this person has a case of sanctimonious asshatery that boarders on madness. Any ideas? Please??
Oh BTW this article gets my personal seal of approval:
sure hope you allow a little basic html…
guess not
Interesting. I just wrote a blog on this too.
http://paintingfaith.wordpress.com/
Actually I pointed people to an article about this topic which made a pretty good argument.
I think the thing that I find most compelling is not whether or not the Bible is infallible, but all the people who believe that their particular interpretation of what they think the Bible says is infallible.
With all the different interpretations and translations, I think we’ll have more than a few disappointed people at the pearly gates. I’d go as far to say all people, but that’s another entry I’m cooking up for my own blog.
cheers!
A standing ovation is in order. Not in defense or offense to any of the previous commentary or dissertation, but I must say. This is far more than a slice of logic and a rather meaningful notion toward something greater than itself–call it what you will. Education is meant to be salvation from most darknesses but in some cases, it is the clause of the inferior.
Bravo, my good man.
faith is about spirit, not numbers
wow, this is briliant!
faith is about spirit, but it doesn’t justify ignorance towards numbers
cool
Idle minds are the devil’s workshop.
Numbers are real
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs D$#$@# – Gospel of Reason [...]
[...] Get the whole scoop here… [...]
a cubit is a unit of measure =~ an arms length
if people were measuring in tens of arms, i doubt they particularly cared if it went all they way to joe bob’s finger tip or his wrist. It’s called rounding, and also significant figures, get with the program.
p.s. pi’s are square, piEs are round.
Sounds to me like God is a physics teacher.
By the way, circular in shape != a perfect circle. I have a tire on my car that is circular in shape, but the weight of my car makes my tired buckle at the bottom, so my tire’s average diameter in relation to its circumference could very well be closer to 3 than 3.14.
Interesting article, but it seems (to a person who does place value on the authority and truth of the Bible) to be a bit misguided. Have you proven that according to this passage Pi is misrepresented? Yes. But for people who regard the Bible as having both literary and moral value, it won’t do much to dissuade. After reading this passage, I’m not thinking to myself “Huh. I guess Pi really does equal 3.0 because that’s what’s written here.” It’s more like “Alright, so the writer was approximating dimensions.” Not all Christians are literalists, fundamentalists, or strict conservatives. The relevant message of the Bible is found in the New Testament (let’s avoid a Council of Nicea debate if we can), not in the rough dimensions of various structures found in the Old Testament.
donquixote…I know it’s aggravating. Your family member obviously cares about you and great deal and is convinced that their way is best. I know it’s a tough situation, just try to be patient with them and remember what their motivation is.
GET.
A.
LIFE.
You’re only a few weeks into summer break and you’re out of beer already?
I keep hearing this idea that people have no meaning as an inherent part of Atheism, which is simply not true. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. Nihilism is the idea that people and things have no worth and that we are just atoms and dust on slightly larger balls of dust and atoms. You are confusing the two. There is such a thing as meaning without God, and it is not at all hard to find. Being a Nihilist and an agnostic, it irritates me to hear people build this huge link between Nihilism and Atheism. The two are not mutually inclusive, nor exclusive, you can be both, or you can be neither, or one or the other. Just like any ideology pretty much. I could be very religious and yet believe in evolution, its not hard at all to be multidimensional, it’s almost automatic.
Ignorance at its finest. You’re eliminating reason in favor of faith in a favor of the translation of a decrepit ancient book, supposedly written by god, even though this is untrue and absurd – much like yourself.
As a non-athiest, I still gotta say, beautiful.
Religion is worthless.
Pi is a theoretical constant which is the ratio of the circumference of a perfect circle to its diameter. No circle on Earth can actually have this ratio, and if you computed this ratio for a circle you drew, you’d get probably 3.148, or 3.107, or something close to ‘pi’ but not exact. So, it is very likely that this (real life) bowl had a ratio of 3, because it wasn’t a theoretical circle, it was only (as the passage states) “circular in shape”.
Using you’re logic, you could never show someone a circle, because as soon as you did, I’d show you that the ratio of its circumference to diameter didn’t equal ‘pi’, but that it equaled 3.146 or something ‘close’ to pi.
GOD it’s nice to see that other’s don’t think the bible is to be taken literally. It’s a compilation (I almost said copulation…that’s funny) of stories to explain the unknown, written by MEN. Men are fallible and pretty dumb. Now, if it were written by WOMEN, then it would be a completely different story… not that I have anything against men. I like men, they are cute.
The religious fanatics will wet their panties when they read this. LOL
a book that (supposedly) teaches love but NEVER fails to bring out the blood lusting hounds.
What is the bible?
I know that this is not very funny but it is something you should think about you know before you start writing your next hate speech.
This supposed proof is wholly flawed. If you measure the inner circumference as 30, then the Biblical pi is only off by 0.00205:
http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm
I am by no means a Biblical literalist, or even a Christian (though most Christians aren’t Old Testament literalists, anyway), but this is just lame. I mean, who has ever claimed pi = 3?
I see a major flaw in your argument. (As a disclaimer, I do believe the Bible to be absolute in its authority and correctness in all manners.) It says, “…circular in shape….” It doesn’t say, “a perfect circle.” Pi applies to a perfect circle; I think we have all described something “circular in shape” that wasn’t a perfect circle. Therefore, it isn’t too hard to surmise that this “pi” might have come up a bit short of the 3.14….number seeing as it wasn’t necessarily a perfect circle. Faith may not be about numbers, but it is about God always being right. If we can’t count on that, then what’s the point. God is not bound by time (He’s infinite) or by space (He’s omnipresent) or by knowledge (He’s omniscient). Therefore, why don’t you give it up to Him that just because you think a circumstance turned out “wrong,” there may be some part of the equation that you don’t (or can’t) see that, indeed, makes that event RIGHT because you are limited by all 3 of the items listed above (time, space, knowledge) and He isn’t. You are crazier than you think I am (for believing in the Bible) if you think you have to be able to understand something before it can make sense. There are great and wonderous things that happen everyday that you’ll never be able to wrap your brain around that make perfect sense to a multitude of people (Christian Bible toting and heathen alike) because of their perspective, etc. Grow up. Existence goes far beyond you and your brain.
Reading comprehension people!
The author is pointing out the hypocrisies displayed by those who believe in Biblical Infallibility.
All the arguments attempting to debunk the author’s math are irrelevant. The Bible SAYS, specifically, that the ratio of a circle is 30:10 cubits.
As soon as you start attempting to INTERPRET what is literally written to match 3.14 you have forfeited your belief in Biblical Infallibility along with any other claims based on it.
The author could have used any one of a large number of examples displaying inconsistencies and his point would still stand. I personally like this one, but that’s a matter of taste.
The author is not bashing any believers out there, he’s simply asking you to not be hypocrites!
Pi is more rational than a theist.
It’s amazing how many bible-thumpers totally missed the point here. The writer’s argument is not weak at all. It’s targeted at the people who claim the Bible is the LITERAL, infallible truth. (Many Christians don’t take the Bible literally, and maybe they’re the ones missing the point.) If the Bible is the literal, infallible truth, then how can it claim that the ratio of circumference to diameter is 3?
Either:
1. The Bible has an approximation in it (making it no longer the literal truth)
or
2. pi *is* equal to three.
Which is it?
[...] Fort heureusement, en 2007, les vieilles doctrines n’enflamment que les cervelles qui s’en imprègnent au lieu des corps des sages, comme il fut jadis coutume. Rions donc avec l’auteur anonyme qui nous prouve que π=3, selon la très sainte Bible. [...]
For the Christians that have a problem with this, I offer..
Consider the vast amount of religions that came before yours and it will prove likely that the Bible simply cannot be the only source you consider for accuracy in the world.
Christianity came along much later than many other religions, which are still going strong, and have adapted to the world we live in. If you close your eyes to scientific advancements because of the doctrine taught in the Bible, then you are only limiting your own education. That is the point of the article.
Let us instead take the teachings of great leaders, such as Christ, or Buddha and have them serve as a guide to our conduct in the advancement of science and this world.
A mind closed to possibilities will only limit you, not the world around you.
Although I agree with your underlying principle, that science is more important than religion in school (and hard facts always outweigh superstition), your argument has some serious problems.
First, you’re quoting from the Tanakh, which is a Jewish document, not a Christian one (regardless of what Christians may believe). Since it is a Jewish document, you should defer to Jewish understanding of it from which you will learn that only the Torah, the first five books, are considered to be the literal word of G-d. Thus, Kings was not written by G-d and is thus subject to approximation and error.
Furthermore, even if Torah is the literal word of G-d (something which I am neither trying to prove nor disprove here), that doesn’t mean that it can’t be allegorical or mythological. In other words, it isn’t what’s written that’s meant to be taken literally but it’s what you might learn from it. Kind of like a puzzle: the reality of it isn’t necessarily in what you see, it’s what you don’t see.
Anyway, this is just another way of looking at it. As I wrote, I’m with you in your motive, it’s just that your tactics are reactionary, sensationalist, not well researched, and a little bit hypocritical. But, by all means, don’t stop trying.
THANK YOU TYCHO
“As soon as you start attempting to INTERPRET what is literally written to match 3.14 you have forfeited your belief in Biblical Infallibility along with any other claims based on it.
The author could have used any one of a large number of examples displaying inconsistencies and his point would still stand. I personally like this one, but that’s a matter of taste.
The author is not bashing any believers out there, he’s simply asking you to not be hypocrites!”
It’s like reading my thoughts exactly.
And could we please put a stop to the personal attacks? It’s kind of making me uneasy. I’m not on summer break, incidentally. I still have one or two exams and essays left.
Gospel of Reason:
You are going to hell for being fucking retards.
God (dad of Jesus)
Haha, faggot ass christians.
I find this highly amusing. The fact that people actually wasted their breath trying to point out how invalid your argument was just validates its tongue in cheek style. Of course the Bible didn’t exactly represent PI, hence why it would be just an approximation. The fact that people actually believe that you are trying to debunk the Bible using this really amuses me as well.
How do people miss the fact that you are mocking them for taking other things so literally? It boggles my mind. They get so caught up with the fact that it “may be an attack on the Bible by an atheist” that they don’t even notice the sarcasm. This is really too funny. Not just the article. That was the beginning. I really loved the comments. I agree with the writer totally. The ultra-religious types need to learn and laugh at how silly they are.
I mean seriously how many times has religion been right over science? I think the problem is science seeks truth in the natural world. Religion runs around screaming about beliefs. Scientists (and people of a rational mindset) will admit they were wrong. We used to think heat was a fluid…seriously that is pretty dumb(at least now). Religious people won’t admit they are wrong. They scream about faith. What about just being good to each other? I love you, why can’t you love me for who I am?
So…I guess you don’t care about the precision or a cubit or significant digits. Technically, 30 and 10 each only have 1 significant digit, meaning that even if it said 31 cubits the proper answer for 31/10 is still 3 (if you care about precision).
The most sensible explanation is that the cubits lengths given are whole cubits and therefore approximations. It’s the same way that you might say a pitch is 30 yards long when in fact it is 29 yards and a bit.
http://www.angelfire.com/my/elliott83/BiblePi.html
A very interesting one I’ve heard, was that the author did not have a flexible tape measure but instead he probably had a few stiff measuring rods in various lengths, one of them being 5 cubits long. If you measure the circumference of a circle of which the diameter is 10 units with a stiff rod that is 5 units long, you can fit 6 of them in (and 6 x 5 units = 30 units). (sorry, can’t find the URL of it right now, but it’s fairly self-explanatory).
“The Bible SAYS, specifically, that the ratio of a circle is 30:10 cubits.”
No it doesn’t. It doesn’t say that at all.
“The Bible SAYS, specifically, that the ratio of a circle is 30:10 cubits.”
Wrong, the bible says that someone made a bowl and measured it with their forearm (a cubit) and found that it’s ratio 30 forearms to 10 forearms. It does not say all circles are a ratio of 3:1.
Clearly they should have recorded the infinite digits of pi. I mean how could they round down by 1 forearm??? I can’t beleive they ignored the .14159169 additional forearms (finger joint?)!!!! Math does not allow rounding! Science forbids rounding!!!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGEEEEEEE!!!!
Oh wait, this is the dumbest arguement I’ve ever seen.
frgough said: “Especially since a cubit is ABOUT 18 inches, and it was a general description of something, not an engineering schematic. It wasn’t telling you HOW to build one, it was telling you what it looked like.”
Well too bad for Noah then, considering God gave him instructions in cubits. That sucks. (But there’s a movie coming out about it, so we’ll get The Rest of the Story.
)
Shall we perhaps (as my children would say) “get real”? The Bible is not a scientific document anymore than it is a history text in the way a work by, say, Bruce Catton would be. It’s a religious text and should be approached as such. If the authors of a text not intended to be a scientific text choose to describe an object with less-than-scientific precision, where is the issue? I don’t see it. (Let’s also realize that you are dealing with an English translation of a Hebrew text and the numbers are rather different in the Hebrew reading … but someone else has already addressed that.)
I am a Christian. Hence, I do believe the Bible is factual and the word of God. However, I also believe in the modern value of pi. I respect your beliefs, but in my studies, I have learned to take a more latent approach to reading the Bible. Perhaps the cubits were spaced evenly along the circumference? Perhaps the Bible is written such that there exist sometimes misleading and misunderstood verses, a result of common, day-to-day approximations/estimates? I mean, 0.14 of a cubit doesn’t seem a likely measure in Biblical times, eh?
Considering a cubit is an approximate measurement, this makes you look really dumb and pretentous. Rounding off to the nearest unit is the only solution when using approximate units. Carrying something to the 5th decimal place implies that level of measuring accuracy, when in fact you can not achieve it with an approximate unit. You, Sir, show your ignorance by spouting how the whole bible is false based on data that proves just one thing. That you are a troll scouring an old book for flaws to stir up controversy.
“Either:
1. The Bible has an approximation in it (making it no longer the literal truth)”
You should read the link I posted. If you measure the inner circumference, which makes sense given the rule of thumb methods used back then, it is accurate to .002. Even if you don’t, we’re talking about CUBITS. We are talking about inherently approximate methods of measurement. If I say that I drank five glasses of water, they don’t have to be the same size for me to be LITERALLY correct. Get it?
I don’t believe the Old Testament is the literal truth. And almost no Christians do. But I am not a Christian. I am, however, disturbed by poor argumentation no matter who it’s coming from.
Zack, this isn’t the “dumbest argument around.” Instead, you responded to one of his claims: You admitted the Bible used rounding, and you’re admitting the Bible, therefore, isn’t the absolute, literal truth.
@Anthony Gregory:
The simple fact that there is no agreement upon whether the Bible is or is not describing a circle, should be evidence enough that it is not infallible.
@Zack:
I agree.
Why are people who don’t believe in God so /angry/ about it?
“You can either accept that the word of God is fallible and men have improved upon it, therefore casting into doubt your claims of Creation.”
How about this: God gave His Word to mankind, who over thousands of years of oral history, and at least three total changes of language and resulting translation. Things are BOUND to get a little messed up each time it’s retold, just by simple forgetting, and purposeful alteration.
PS: I’m a Christian who also believes in science (eg evolution, physics, astronomy) and doesn’t find a conflict between that and religion.
@frgough:
He’s not talking about Lamarckism you hick. Hard bicycle seats damage sterility. He was talking about “cleansing the gene pool.”
Have you ever tried to draw a perfect circle? The ratio of Pi assumes a perfect circle. I guarantee the basin described in Kings was not perfectly round at the size mentioned.
Now look at this as if you were an author. Would you write that the diameter was 9.54929659 cubits or would you just say basically 10? Your editor would approve of you using 10 and so did God. It’s not like this was an indepth math lesson.
@AndrewMoyer
Your numerology is blasphemous! Ain’t nuthin’ in the bible ’bout no algebra! You’s must be in kahootz with the devil!
Rev. Spaminator, Keeper of the Chainsaw of BoB, Commander of the Legions of St. Ash, Exile from the Palace of the Milk Dawg, Founder of the Bastard Children of the Immaculate Conception.
Repent your satanic ways and find a more profitable faith! Collect donations in the name of Jesus, BoB, Eris, or the FSM! *
*Make sure your foundation has all the tax stuff set up and aren’t violating any federal, state or municipal laws. (i.e. copyright, arms, mass suicide, polygamy, etc…)
FNORD!
Choas — I live only a couple miles from the new Creation Museum. I’ve met many Christians who agree with you, and many other Christians, unfortunately, who would disagree. Around here there are many, many Christians who do not believe the Bible was in any way corrupted whatsoever, even after translations. They believe the Bible is 100% literal, absolute truth. The problem I have is these people are fighting against Science and ultimately teaching children not to trust science, and, unfortunately, are managing to get their beliefs into the schools and in the science classrooms. As a father of a little boy approaching Elementary School age, I find that incredibly disturbing, and it upsets me that I may have to start the “un-learning” if he is taught things by these people that are scientifically wrong. That’s where my own personal frustration comes from.
“Because the purpose of the Bible is to instruct as to the way to receive eternal life…
Kristin – June 13th, 2007 at 6:23 pm”
So eternal life is a reasonable proposition?
You sure stirred up the nutters there eltower.
They are in full repeatomatic mode about this bit of humor you presented.
Excellent work!
The ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius (pi) is 3.1415926……only on a flat plane. It’s different if you draw the circle on the surface of, for example, a sphere.
So we cannot prove that the value of pi stays the same over long periods of time. This is because we cannot prove that the local curvature of space-time has remained constant.
Also, if the universe is a fractal and has fractional dimensionality, then there could easily be not 3 spacial dimensions, but pi (or some other figure) spacial dimensions. It could be that when you measure pi, you are just measuring the fractal dimensionality of the universe.
So don’t be too sure about the constancy of math constants. The more we know, the more we realise how little we know, and how wonderous the universe is.
I’ve just remembered a sentence about God and Numbers…
“God is real… unless it´s imaginary”
I’ve always had the feeling that modern circles were in some way “mocking” me. Why can’t we just return to the good old days where the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle is just 3!!
I detect the hand of the DEVIL in these modern physical ratios, trying to confuse us with his diabolical non-whole numbers and soft fleshy trigonometry enticing us to perform unusual circular motions!
“I don’t believe the Old Testament is the literal truth. And almost no Christians do.”
Unfortunately, some Xtians do … and they use these ideas to damage and endanger other people’s lives.
So if most Xtians don’t want to be associated with them, they need to loudly and publicly DISAVOW that ignorance.
John Murray dixit:
The ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius (pi) is 3.1415926……only on a flat plane. It’s different if you draw the circle on the surface of, for example, a sphere.
Hahahahahaaaaa… the most funiest thing on this page!
I’m sure you are a creationist…
This is the funniest thing I’ve seen today! The measurements to Noah’s ark were way off as well if you will note. It was exactly .000093 cubits longer than reported. I will be neat to see if we have more precise measurements later…
I barely have enough faith to believe in Christianity, I think it’s great that there are those with much more faith and can actually believe in evolution and stuff,
, talk about a fairy tale! Even more so to be an Atheist, to claim infinite knowledge of the universe and be able to say “I know there is no God”.
Those of you who can say that, never let a Christian or any other say you are without faith for you have many times more faith than even the greatest religious person of all faiths.
@Chaos Motor
“Why are people who don’t believe in God so /angry/ about it?”
I’m not angry about not believing in God. I’m angry about others shoving their beliefs down my throat. I’m angry about logic and rational thought being replaced by faith and dogma. I’m angry about every innocent person who suffers because of the faith of someone else.
@Heath:
IMO: To say “there is no God” takes EXACTLY the same amount of faith as to say “there is God”.
I guess that’s why I’m an agnostic
This is the worst argument against the bible being the true word of God I have ever seen.
#1 the measurements given only allow you to calculate pi to the nearest whole number…which should and does equal 3. So the text is correct.
#2 The fact that the bible does not mention that pi is irrational means absolutely nothing. The value of pi is totally irrelevant in this book, so why would it be mentioned?
Your efforts to sound intelligent only serve to prove the opposite.
Heath,
Good grief. An atheist is by defintion ‘a theist’, as in ‘without faith’. A good book (let’s call it The Dictionary) is powerful beyond belief, go read it literally.
The difference between an atheist and a theist is that one requires evidence while the other does not. God is fairy tale told to scare children, who then grow up and tell their kids. The circle will one day be broken, believe in that.
PS The only time in recorded human history that religion had almost complete control of society was what we call today ‘The Dark Ages’ – let’s not go back to that…
It doesnt matter that a cubit is approximate.
The approximation falls out of the RATIO of diameter and circumference !
Which is latin for REASON !
Pi = 3.14159, we know this already.
You’re confusing faith with belief. They are two very different things.
Focusing on belief, you paint an absurd portrait of what you imagine to be a Christian – literal when it comes to the bible, exclusive, etc — and create your own “dogma” that you rail against. If God was a question of the accuracy of calculations in a book reflecting the human attempt to move from foisting their own limitations on the Divine to a realization of the Divine, I would have to agree with your dismissal of God.
With any atheist I’ve spoken with, it’s not God that’s being rejected, but a very silly concept of God.
In the same way, you can no more move past the Bible than a fundamentalist, lol, and risk being just as short-sighted.
Did anyone care to notice the description of the object as “circular” in shape. I may not be an Greek scholar, but the “ular” suffix means “relating to” so appended to the root “circ” means that the object was like a circle in shape. Just like you would call a toilet bowl circular. If you had a tire that was around 5% flat (also not a math scholar), would it not still be circular and able to be traveled upon? In that case your whole argument is null since what is being described may never have been intended to be an exact circle!
I am a Christian and enjoy learning, science and math. I don’t believe something just because it’s in the Bible. I believe that the purpose of the book is not to compete with or disprove math or science, but to describe the relationship of God with men. True faith is when you can believe that the book is infallible as we continue to discover new things about our world. The meaning and insight you can glean from this book changes with the context with which you approach it. So if you read it expecting nothing and just read the words and stories, you surely will get nothing out of it.
I think what true intellectuals should be capable of is respecting each other’s hypotheses, beliefs, ideas, etc. I believe it is foolish to just accept something without applying any thought to it or following leaders based on their word. It is equally poor judgment to alter your hypothesis based on your beliefs. If you want the biblereading masses to blindly accept what you believe as fact, you must be willing to blindly accept what they believe as fact. Otherwise you are a hypocrit.
We must be constantly challenged to change our perspective of our world with all these inputs (science, belief system, literature, etc). But you must also realize that some do not have the capacity to change their minds as quickly as academic participants.
So all that being said, I admire the debate. I hope that perhaps this conflict will allow you to take a second look at the Bible; not to disprove it or blindly accept it, but rather to use it as input for the constant pursuit of knowledge and wisdom.
Well if the bible says its 3 then it must be true… just like talking bushes that burst into flames and unicorns or leprechauns…
I’m not an atheist or a nihlist… I do believe that there is a God. I don’t believe that the bible is the exact word of God though. It was written by men… men are fallible…
I agree with the ed ed ed, though… the bible is an amazing work of fiction. and possibly should be taught as that… but not for moral rectitude… if you want moral rectitude, there are plenty of other things we should be doing as a society. starting with getting our troops out of harms way…
Strange. I always find it strange that people who feel so passionately about something, as it seems you do, and step so far to one side completely in their beliefs, as it seems you do, will over rationalize their perception of other people’s beliefs in their arguments against. Or will over think a supposed piece of evidence until it says exactly what you want it to.
By stepping so far into your rationalizations to prove your bias you become incredibly irrational yourself in most of your proclamations, as I’ve seen several people point out… no they don’t say that the ration of a circle is 30:10, but through your eyes it does, because it allows you to prove it wrong, because you don’t believe in it.
And then we get to, what exactly is God’s word, and what should be taken literally within the bible’s pages? Is it the Bible itself, or is God’s word contained within the bible? Certain elements and passages of the bible are recorded by non-mathematicians. Certain elements are recorded in a way of historical documentation (as this passage seems to be), some in letters…here’s what I’m getting at. In all of the analogies and metaphors and symbolisms and parables in the bible you tell me if what should be taken literally is the circumference of a circle or the meaning behind the story containing the circumference of a circle it which it clearly doesn’t state what pi is. In your simplistic nitpicking of something here and there you’ve overlooked the much bigger arguments that theologians have been kicking around for centuries.
But nice try!
This conversation/argument is moot. One side will point out fallacies in the Bible, while being blind to the others’ explanations. The other side will be blind to fallacies that do exist.
My opinion, not that anyone cares, is that no one bothers to read the commentary for the Old Testament. The Torah was meant to be read with commentary. The gematria is commentary.
Imagine the Torah as Cliffnotes. The commentary is the full book.
Since Noah was a prophet, God did not say to built something, Noah saw God’s vision.
Oh well, none of you will listen.
All this arguement over a bathtub, gee.
It is kinda simple: man lived in paradise, he was told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, he did it anyway, so he got thrown out. So it is up to man to learn the math himself (by the sweat of his brow LOL), not for G-d to give it to him. Wake up people.
no one said math would be easy… ROTFLMAO
Why do people say evolution is fact? I believe in intelligent designer vice random chance but I KNOW its my BELIEF. All creation theories are THEORIES because they obviously have not been observed and cannot be reproduced by anyone. The idea of “disproving the bible” by pointing out the fact that the author left out .14 is assenine. Get a life.
God isn’t redefining pi, he’s redefining the value of 3.
Come on people!! I am no religious fanatic but you guys are really reaching with this one. pi is only acurate on an exact circal, what sea have you seen that is exactly round. Also I am pretty sure those measurements where probably estimates. And by any estimation, being off by .14 isn’t that all bad.
Listen, the Bible has plenty of errors. However, to argue about this involves a lack of reasoning. Those who argue that PI is anything but 3.14159265 have no ability to reason. Anyone who argues that in 1000 BC engineers could make a bath tub that was PERFECTLY round have no ability to reason. But, let’s look at one scenario:
If we replace common values for cubits (17.75 inches) and handbreadths (4 inches) and measure the OUTSIDE diamater of the bowl and the INSIDE (Why the inside? They may have placed the measuring rope on the lip of the bowl and in this way not stretched the rope. Measuring outside the bowl would need the rope to be strechted to be held in place) circumference of the bowl we get: (10 – 30/p)/2 x 17.75 = 4. From this we get that PI=355/113 = 3.1415929. 700 Years later Archimedes says: 223/71
Come on people!! I am no religious fanatic, but you guys are really reaching with this one. pi is only acurate on an exact circle. What sea have you seen that is exactly round? Also I am pretty sure those measurements were probably estimates. And by any estimation, being off by .14 isn’t that all bad.
Had to post again to fix errors.
> Why do people say evolution is fact?
Feel free to provide a link to someone actually do this.
“circular in shape” does not mean “an exact circle”. It means roughly the shape of a circle.
With or without a creator, existence is miraculous. The scope of this miracle has been beyond the grasp of human intelligence — neither our myths nor our equations have come close to an explanation. Keep an open mind.
cake > pi
The kind of dogma I’m railing against is the kind that insists the bible is absolute truth, that biblical texts outweigh reproducible observation, and that people are deserving of less than fair treatment because of their individual faith.
Do I know what it means to be Christian? I was raised in the Greek Church. (Old School – Close as you can get to the way it was nearly 1000 years ago.)
I don’t believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. (I’ve found hints that the Easter Bunny is real, but in an unexpectedly dark and Lovecraftian way.) Jesus, I’m convinced was not resurrected but more like reanimated and still walks the earth feeding upon the flesh of the living. (The “flesh and blood” was supposed to be a warning to living.)
To say I believe in nothing is false. I believe in the absurdity, and countless hours of joy it can bring to all of us.
FNORD!
could that have been the _Old Covenant_ pi?
eltower, how is the belief of the infallibility of the bible forfeited if I interpret the 30:10 ratio as being an approximation of pi? Your reasoning escapes me. All reading requires interpretation–reading the fantastical and reading the literal, and one of the goals may be (probably ought to be) to understand the author’s original intent. We’re separated from the author (and audience) of the text by thousands of years and significant cultural differences concerning how we think and what we know. For all any of us know (a nod to the agnostics), the book may in fact be infallible, but the rightwing nuts and religious fanatics have interpreted it incorrectly for the rest of us, scaring the reasonable in us away from wanting it to be so (or finding it credible to be so.) It seems highly likely that in this one case you’ve chosen, the instructions do not deviate from mathematical reality. I find nothing in the demand of interpretation that debunks their claims to the text being infallible. Just because we have to ‘interpret’ it–that is, actively make sense of it in our own particular culture and sense of reality even though it was written in a completely different setting–doesn’t prove anything except that modes of expression (and measuring) change over the millennia. The text may in fact be the fanciful writing you claim, but I don’t see how this demands it.
jb
I agree with all of the religious people pointing out that the argument is pointless because it assumes that what is written in the Bible is accurate and has a fixed meaning.
Christianity is a theory as well. The only thing that’s certain is math and death.
John Murray: I don’t believe that you are a creationist. I like your argument. The value that we recognise as Pi derives from Euclidean geometry, which is based on an idealized flat plane. This exists only in our minds. Pi does not hold the same value in hyperbolic geometry, for example
It’s amazing how many people miss the point. Your Mom said, “The bible isn’t suppossed to be literal…thats the point. ITS A FUCKING STORY.” Exactly! This is the point of the original post, but it’s not being directed towards the people who already believe that “IT’S A FUCKING STORY” (note the apostrophe). It’s being directed towards people who believe that the bible is fact – the literal word of god. It’s being directed towards the people who want your schools to teach the bible as “scientific fact”. I say ‘your schools’ because I live in a country where we teach proper science. I pity the Kids In America (wo oh) where ‘concerned parents’ can vote in curriculum that teaches children that an infallible, incomplete, lost, bronze-age text trumps 200 years of accumulated scientific research. Folks, just because a million idiots believe that something is true, “doesn’t necessarily make it fucking so” (to quote Nice Guy Eddie).
Way to go USA. Bottom of the class. Leave your weapons at main reception.
eltower, I think it’s kinda funny that you haven’t tried to reply to the more well written responses from the likes of Terrill and Travis. I really don’t give a damn but it seems like you’re avoiding it.
@dugfromthearth
Yeah, I’ll agree with that. To assume the Bible is accurate and has a fixed meaning could lead to something as idiotic as creationism be taught to our kids in public schools. How do I make that leap? You have to believe and convince others that the bible is absolutely infallible. From there you convince people that an accepted scientific idea is in conflict with the bible. The you just have to rile up your mob. Thermodynamics will probably be the next concept on the radar.
Blessed are the cheeseparers.
You seem to be very against “Biblical literalists”. I would urge to remember that the vast majority of people who call themselves Christian are not Biblical literalists at all. I am a Catholic, and hold Scripture and Tradition as equal authorities.
The Catholic Church has sole authority to interpret the Bible, and I am sure that the Church would have no problem with Pi being 3.141592654.
Thank you.
J Browne, University of Wales
Wow… Y’know, I was just directed to this page and I’m AMAZED at how much discussion has gone on in the span of only a single day. Given the futility of Faith v. Reason arguments, I’m even more astounded… Although, I will admit that I like the stickers.
If we could chain all of you to a machine that generated electricity from keystrokes, I bet we could eliminate worldwide reliance on fossil fuels…
If I’m elected God, I promise to build such a machine and chain all of you to it for the greater good of mankind.
Please, vote for me in ‘08!..
Do it for the environment.
Do it for the children.
“Have you ever tried to draw a perfect circle?”
I mean when Pope Benedict asked Giotto for a drawing to prove his worth as an artist, what he did was draw a perfect circle freehand. Perfection is a powerful message.
- Dr. Ted Fielding, Sphere
Love the idea.
If only I had a bumper.
The Bible can be inerrant and still speak in the ordinary Language of everyday speech . This is especially true in “scientific” or ” historical” descriptions of facts or events. The limits of truthfulness would depend on the degree of precision implied by the speaker and expected by his original listeners. It should not trouble us then to affirm both that the Bible is absolutely truthful in everything it says, and that it uses ordinary language to describe natural phenomena or to give approximations or round numbers when those are appropriate in the context.
There was once a man named Jeff. Everyone considered Jeff to be infallible. And Jeff was of the opinion that Bob should get a raise, and so his followers did hold the same belief.
And it came to pass that Jeff came into work. And his followers asked “How was your commute, Jeff?”, and Jeff did say that it took him 30 minutes, and that he enjoyed a variety of his favorite music. And his followers did believe.
And so it came to pass that Haverdash entered the office with his stopwatch of divine accuracy, having followed Jeff that morning. And Haverdash exposed that Jeff’s commute was not 30 minutes but 31 minutes and 24.59 seconds. Jeff was 4.5% off in his report of a 30 minute commute.
Yet the words of Haverdash were as follows:
“You can either accept that the word of Jeff is fallible (and men have improved upon it), therefore casting into doubt your claims that Bob should get a raise.
Or you could hold steadfast to your Jeff-given beliefs. Stand by in the face of stopwatch persecution and shout loud to the heavens that THE COMMUTE, goddammit, was equal to 30.0 minutes because Jeff said so.”
And everyone laughed, because Jeff’s imprecision was no cause for alarm. He was just describing a commute, for Go–err–for Jeff’s sake, not recording data for an almanac!
(Note that the above actually happened. The followers of Jeff got all uptight and counter-attacked Haverdash, saying Jeff was just approximating.
Then Haverdash and his followers started acting as if that was their only goal all along! They were only trying to get Jeff’s followers to admit that Jeff wasn’t always literal, so ha, we win.
But when you actually look, Haverdash’s argument didn’t stop there. It continued that “If the stopwatch is right, then Jeff is wrong…better think again about that Bob fellow!”
In the end, Jeff’s claim of 30 minutes was ruled correct for purpose, everyone on both sides was a little red-faced, and the jury’s still out in regard to Bob).
@J Browne
Some from the Eastern church might disagree with you as to who has “sole authority” to interpret the bible.
But this wasn’t about people who are rational enough to realize that the bible isn’t to be interpreted literally. This was about nutjobs who use the bible to drive a mob into a political movement.
Hehe, I think I have to support the theory that men of biblical times could only pull out the ‘one cubit’ stick and lay them end to end; then, being the good scientific people that they were, did not want to inaccurately estimate the measurements past one significant figure in a holy text.
What as ass, but you already knew that.
Yahweh is all like: “Oh noes, I’z forgot to add teh rest of teh numbaz! Quick! To teh bat-mobile!”
Wow! You just strengthened my faith that the Bible is od’s word. I mean, rounded up, Pi=3. At an age when there were no calculators or sophisticated measuring instruments, what do you expect?
Of course this verse is infallible and literally true. PI = 3 for the item in question! Of course, ordinary basins display a ratio of diameter to circumference equal to the accepted mathematical value of PI, but this was no ordinary basin.
@sigh
The jury was hung in regard to BoB a long time ago. But in any case, BoB doesn’t care as long as he can smoke from his sacred pipe.
God likes pie – pretty sure, even if it’s not in the bible there are things to discover about Him through relationship, not words.
I tried to have a relationship with God, but over time it became needy and unhealthy. Besides, he would never show up for anything, always sending the Holy Ghost in his stead. Talking to God was just like talking to myself. All in all, it was a pretty one way relationship that I’m glad is over.
FNORD!
Is this a joke???
If anyone wants to find the value for Pi by themselves get a circular can, a piece of string, and a ruler.
Wrap the string around the base of the can, mark it, record it’s length(i.e. the circumference) Measure the diameter of the can.
now
circuference over diameter equals Pi.
It doesn’t take long to find peculiarities in the Bible.
Genesis 1:26
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
Either God doesn’t quite understand singular vs plural, he’s schizophrenic, he’s using the ‘royal we’, or it didn’t get translated appropriately.
Or take this from Genesis 3:
“9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. ”
Why did God have so many questions? Doesn’t he know everything? Is he asking questions to see if they lie. Or is it again possible that it was mistranslated.
My point is this: Since the Bible wasn’t written by God himself, and since it wasn’t originally written in any of our modern languages, its ‘could be’ riddled with inaccuacy, bad translations (sometimes words don’t really translate, so the translator just guesses or uses a phrase), and biases towards what the translator wanted it to say. It is NOT the word of God. Only clergymen and crazy people hear the direct word of God.
It’s pretty simple to know right from wrong. If you need a book to tell you, then you are retarded.
As far as PI goes, my favorites are apple, french silk, and hair.
@ Rev Spaminator
No, I don’t think they would, by and large. The Eastern Churches are Catholic, and therefore share in that authority.
However, I should have been more clear.
J Browne, University of Wales
@John Browne
There are some differences. They are trying to work them out, but I know how stubborn Greeks can be.
[...] When asked of the Great Toast “What is that answer of PI?”. The Great Toast replied, “It is an irrational number and yee feeble mind cannot [...]
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit Ed note: Given the amount of number pseudo-crunching I’ve seen apologists perform, I would like to reference the […] [...]
[...] π = 3.0 Filed under: lulz — OwlManAtt @ 7:00 pm [...]
While we’re on the subject…
If being gay is “wrong” and catholic priests have taken a vow of celibacy, then does that mean those gay, child molesting catholic priests are going to have to do a shitload of hail mary’s after confession? I bet they get off easy… ha ha I made a funny.
PSA: My catholic priest molested your honor student!!
YES I TOTALLY WIN THE INTERNET!!!
The Bible says a lot of things. The Bible also says that menstruating women should be stuck in a hut for 7 days so as not to contaminate everything. And I think I can figure out on my own that killing people and stealing is bad.
God is the sum of man’s ignorance.
@ Rev Spaminator
Indeed! I’ve written papers on this issue in the past, and to be honest, I think a union with a Third Anglican Province is more likely that full East/West reunion, in this century anyway.
@ therealdonquixote
What? Someone delete that comment, please. It’s most distasteful.
@Rev. Spaminator
And will continue to be until the end. As someone who started without strong feelings on either side who takes it all away for a “third-party review”, if you will, these are the main problems. Keep in mind that when I say “neither camp” I am clearly not talking about *all* members.
First, neither camp understands the other’s beliefs. Clearly this is a barrier to healthy discussion.
Second, neither camp properly understands their own. Both prefer to regurgitate what others in their camp have said before them, blindly accepting it, rather than taking things away for study on their own.
Third, neither side can stand it when the other makes a valid point. Discussion then devolves into debate, and further into what I can only call a flame-war.
Fourth, members of both sides get so giddy when they think they’ve spotted a chance to make a slam-dunk that they spew a bunch of nonsense before they realize that their ball is flat. This is usually followed by the opposing camp going nuts on a counterattack, and half of the allied camp posting their embarrassment at the poorly constructed argument.
And that’s where it all breaks down. Opposing, allied. Everyone’s looking at each other as enemies to be thwarted, when we should all be working together to discover the truth (which will include a lot of “wow” moments on both sides).
The interesting thing that I’ve found is that, while there is still a lot of doubt to swim against, the Bible is a lot more logical, and God a lot less crazy, than I thought when I started. Emphasis on “still a lot of doubt to swim against,” but even that is dissolving into a case of what I *thought* it said, and what I *thought* they taught (in many cases what they *do* teach as victims of point two above), as opposed to what it actually contains.
@HairPieLover
Thank you, as I wrote my post you exemplified the first point. Always refresh before hitting Submit
The plural is used because of the concept of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Some would teach that each of the three is fully and completely God, and they are separate / distinct, but that there’s only one God. Obviously this would be contradictory, but I have yet to find where the Bible states it in this way. I’m starting to read
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm
for an alternative and hopefully logically consistent view. However as I haven’t completed the read, I cannot endorse it.
Have you ever asked your dog “What did you do!? What is this!?” when you are staring right at the mess? I know I do. If you don’t have a pet or kids that have done wrong against you, you may never understand this one, unless you had good parents and can remember them doing it to you.
We urge the other side, constantly, to open their minds and give an alternate set of beliefs a chance. I’ve gone ahead and taken that advice myself, and have begun to look at theirs, and hope you will too. Solving the four points above could be the start toward a lot of answers.
I see this from two perspectives. First, for the Word of God to be of any effect, it must be mixed with faith. No faith, no spiritual profit. If you’re looking to disprove the credibility of the bible to your satisfaction, no doubt you will succeed in your evdeavor if you are persistent.
My second perspective is found in one of those “fictional” scriptures that I’m going to throw your way in closing- “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18.
I wish I knew that the bible actually said pi = 3 before now, thats amazing, great work, spread the word! I also think its funny/sick that fundamentalist christians hate terrorists which has become a label for religious extremists, i.e themselves. Time to pick sides, ignorance or intelligence.
I can’t wait until pi = 3 is in those looney creationist museums.
[...] Interesting…no comments Filed under: Uncategorized — benedictchan @ 5:36 pm Taken off from another blog: http://gospelofreason.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/god-said-pi-3-stand-by-your-beliefs-dammit/ [...]
+ Millennium bug II
I am amazed at the cubits nonsense. It doesn’t matter what the units are, the could be angstroms, feet, or foo as long as they are consistent. The ratio, which is what pi is, remains constant. Innumeracy is still rampant.
Also, I Kings does not predate pi. Good knowledge and practical use of that ratio far predates the 600-800 b.c.e. period when the books of Kings were written.
Has no one seen this website?
http://www.recoveredscience.com/const303solomonpi.htm
http://www.recoveredscience.com/SolomonsPi2.gif
The last verse says the rim was like the calyx of a lily. (At this point you may want to search for a picture of a lily to refresh your memory). A lily is flaired outward – not straight and vertical like a bucket.
So the ten cubit diameter measured across its top from rim to rim was larger than that of the vessel’s body which “took a line thirty cubits long to go around it”.
The surveyors would hardly have tried to stretch their measuring rope around the proud outside of that rim where it would never stay up. The only practical way to measure such a flared vessel is to stretch the rope around the body below that rim.
The circumference and diameter reported were thus not for the same circle, and deducing an ancient pi from these unrelated dimensions would be about as valid as trying to deduce your birth date from your phone number.
I think the more serious underlying issue around faith and the belief in things without evidence is what can happen when people misuse the “legitimacy” that faith has in society today. In most civilized societies today one person’s faith is usually not a big deal to the next person, except when faith collides with evidence-based reason and someone gets hurt. At that point, our legal systems take over, presumably to resolve the issue based upon reason and evidence.
Problems occur when faith trumps evidence-based reason. When this occurs under the guise of religion (Sunni vs Shiite, the crusades, etc.) the only common ground is evidential based law, which is what was undermined in the first place by faith-based reasoning.
Most people agree that extremism in religion is not good for society, but unfortunately extremism is an example of faith-based beliefs despite overwhelming physical evidence to the contrary of those beliefs. In order to discredit extremism, one must discredit their faith-based methods of reasoning, which then causes anxiety in faith-based moderates. Because lots and lots of people have certain degrees of faith about God and the Bible, the extremists are effectively protected by the masses that tolerate faith-based reasoning because they share elements of that reasoning. Where does one draw the line when it comes to faith-based reasoning? How is that line enforced and upon what method of reason?
If we agree that we cannot force faith-based beliefs upon one another, then the logical outcome is that the legal and political systems today must not allow faith-based laws and actions. It really is all or nothing, in my [humble] opinion.
@tillman
Your argument, made many times before, is what’s fallible. It *does* matter that the units are cubits, because units are not a standard and precise measure.
Since a cubit is not a precise measure, 30 cubits is not 30 times anything. It’s
18 + 16.5 + 19 + 17 + 16.9 + 18.2 + … + 18
So you cant say
30(c) = 10(c)pi
And solve for x
Because c is not constant.
Instead of using 30 and 10 I’m going to use 3 and 1 to illustrate the point.
3 cubits = 18 + 18.5 + 18.2
1 cubit = 17.4
Do the math. You can do the same with 30 values and 10 values if you want.
edit above:
because units are not a standard and precise measure.
should read:
because cubits are not a standard and precise measure.
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I know that people need religion to
not fear something as complicated and secretive as the outcome of death and what happens to an individual after he dies,
and I know that people also need religion because they believe that morality equals religion and that you need religion to be moral,
and that you need to be scared into being a good person otherwise you will be punished in a theoretical afterlife….
but can people just wake up… for mankinds sake..
we as humans will always have the endeavor to seek more knowledge. We need to know why, and how.. of what if…
we develop ideas that can mathematically explain things very precisely and sometimes even exactly, and we call this science. It is us and now..
what we do not need is conflict.. we do not need combative behavior and opinions that jeopardize the very well being of mankind.. we do not need excessive abuse and misuse of material things, and mental pride.. which all come about with poorly developed economics and even religious hubris.
the bible is a long congregation of documents pinned together at the Council of Nicea along with the old documents of the herew culture. They are documents.. documents.. both non-fictional and fictional… documents..
many people on this planet whom are humans just as well, do not know of these bibles, nor preachings, nor ideas because they are culturally taught otherwise.
Do not try to amalgamate religion and culture to what is fundamental in science and mankind’s ever growing infinite wisdom.
Life is scary, death is scary, but if it wasnt we wouldnt know of the the beautiful things.. we need fear to understand bravery.. we need pain to understand pleasure.. we need death to understand life.. we don’t need other peoples insecurities infecting the rest of us truly happy people.
I am happy… truly happy… I am content and completely satisfied in the knowing of death to come to me.. and that people I have loved I will never see again after they have died. I do not need religion effecting my life and my science and my people.. I do not need anybodys religion effecting the world’s life and science. I do not need to believe in a everlasting afterlife or so called heaven… a boring place of clouds and only good.. what would the good be without the bad.. therefore there is no good in heaven… nor do i need an afterlife of hell of only bad… what would bad be without the good therefore there is no bad in hell…
we need cohesion.. in our short lives.. in our conflicting meaningless wars.. in our ever changing planet of potential natural disaster… we need cohesion, we need eachother
who gives a fuck guys we r all gonna die one day, an y argue over things that never matter to us??
A lot of the things that were said in the bible were bull shit, becasue god didnt write the bible people did so during the middle ages some stuf prob. got changes, also the person said everything kept changing,wtf man count the number of bible versions, the lords words changed too man, thats wat im sayin it dont make no sense to argue ova this and i agree with justme.
ayo, yall r gay u knoe that, pi = 3.1415… this has been proven a long time ago, yall mad late(a lot of centuries).
Its funny watching all of you waste your time arguing, I got bored after the fifth reply
This is easy to explain… it took some time back then to measure things… after all, we are using the distance from the elbow to the TIP of the longest finger… so measure the circumference… probably took all day.. Hey its 30 cubits… that night the pharaoh cuts his finger nails ( well actually he didn’t do it, but one of his slave girls cut his nails, nice manicure, perhaps even washed his feet… it was a good time to be a pharaoh!)
Next day they measure the diameter… ought oh! the cubit’s a little smaller because his nails are cut..
so Pi ends up being 3. Oh the humanity !!!
Now you need to get to the real meaning of the story and not get caught up in the mathematics… God was just trying to show that Pi are not square… Pi are round.
In the next chapter, we will deal with rho. Is rho the weight of water, or is rho the wait in water until the sail came along ???
Your argument is as flawed as you claim your subject to be.
This is also old news. Google it or even find it on wikipedia and you will find more explanations and rational ones at that, unlike your ideas for articles on this website.
If you would put as much effort into something more productive then you do with this small time blog then you might not have so much bitching to do at other peoples beliefs.
Where are your rebuttals to some of the informative comments left here? Are you just too ignorant to accept you’re wrong?
[...] [...]
In ancient texts, whenever they start mentioning mathematical quantities, they are really instructing in math. It is a feature of ancient mathematical writing that it is couched in everyday experience- for instance, a Babylonian text might talk about a 3,4,5 triangle in terms of distance between buildings. And in this case, the ratios of the sides are exact. Ancient people knew that mathematics is an exact science, and that the ratios and relationships have meaning that transcends the examples used in the writing, but they would still use everyday items and situations to illustrate the underlying exact mathematical relationships. Taken in this context, it does seem that the author is saying that 30/10 = pi. In other words, the math was intended to be separated out from the example, and it should work out exactly.
The pool is 10 cubits from one end to another and has a thickness of 1 hand-breadth. If you take the 30 cubit circumference as the circumference of the inside of the pool (so excluding the rim), you get pi (or close enough, I got 3.136).
So try this: measure your cubit and your hand-breadth. Cubit=c, hand-breadth=h. Assuming that the circumference described is the inner circumference, calculate 30c/(10c-2h) and the h is multiplied by 2 since you run into it twice, once on each end. I have a cubit of 37 cm and a hand-breadth of 8 cm. 30*37/(10*37-2*8) = 3.13559, which is close enough.
Just like there are idiots who get carried away about Christianity/Creationism and make false claims about it, there are idiots who want to bash it so much that they don’t bother to check everything. This is why the debate never goes anywhere.
Kit Peters makes a good point that yes that is the ratio of pi to one significant digit. I would like to also add… that knowing something about bible literacy and context of these writings, a cubit in length was not an exact measurement like we would treat a meter or a foot defined down by international standards. Rather a cubit was actually the length of a person’s forearm, varying from person to person. Thus this passage from Kings is merely just stating approximate size. It follows that the ratio pi = 3.14…. could still stand because of error either in measurement, significant digits, or even in our number theory if you will. Whatever it is, I believe that God did not give divine inspiration to the Bible just to make everything easy for us and to reveal all the secrets of the universe. We have to search and find out for ourselves the finer details.
If you are going to make an argument based on the bible as you pro port “a work of fiction”, I pose this question why was it written in Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. ”
Does this not say that we will increase our knowledge of the physical world around us, through scientific method, theory, and proof? We are indeed gaining more knowledge and understanding of the world than ever before.
If you ever took a numerical analysis class in university/college which i have, the you would know that numbers are just a tool that can easily be manipulated. ie 4 may look like 5 for large values of 4 and small values of 5.
My point… we don’t know everything, the Bible was not the end all of knowledge nor was it meant to be, It was just a guide to give people hope of a brighter future, and a model to pattern their lives after so that future may be obtained. Anything else is nitpicking, of course unless you don’t believe a word of it then you really shouldn’t care what it says should you? Simple really!
Interesting. Except how many metal workers do you know use that type of precision for something decorative? Also, you are assuming the sea was perfectly circular or spherical.
The passage just says the sea was circular in shape. For example, if you take the bottom 3rd of a sphere the distance accross would not be the diameter. If the sea were shaped like this then you would be correct in saying that the circumference was 30, but the 10 you get would not be the diameter.
I dunno, I’m kinda laughing at all of you right about now.. trying to shove what each of you believe down each others’ throats (Yeah, the atheists too).
I’m with the objective bunch who says none of you know what the hell you’re talking about. ..Well, aside from the calculations.
I will accept the contents of this article as the Real Truth only if you provide an Aramaic translation
Yawn. Should have been doing a random act of kindness. ( I’m laughing too TK! )
Onward to actually doing something instead of reading pity comments
that accomplish nothing.
HELLO!
Have you seen the advances in technology in the past 70years they are FAR beyond ANYTHING people of that time could have even imagined. HELL there was 1 guy thousands of years after Christ died that figured out how to get the measurement of the 3rd side of a triangle when you only know 2 sides and or an angle!
DONT BE SO NARROW MINDED!
god rulz!.
Hi from Argentina!
yeah u dont know anything about the bible or math… the bible was written by men – who knew less math than we do now… pi is a theory, so is god, so is the bible
stfu noob
Everyone before has pretty much said it all. Why are you wasting your time with something as stupid as this? Many atheists would think this article is just as stupid as Christians think it is.
OK, I read it. Yawn.
I’m underwhelmed by the premise.
Overwhelmed by the self-satisfied narcissism of the writer.
He seems to believe he’s knocked down 2,000 years of scholarship.
And he’s invited the blogosphere to join his circle-jerk.
I’m struck by the fact that the atheist crowd is far more strident and intolerant than anything I’ve ever experienced first hand from a person who believes in God.
Wonder why that is?
Hmm,.. Maybe we should throw in a couple images of Paris Hilton to keep it interesting? Just a thought.
Jesus is my bitch, and you (christians) are jesus’ bitch, therefore you are my bitch.
JEdwardFuck, you are my hero. Thank you for owning those Christians so hard.
What an absurd argument.
Hebrews itself is a very very “vague” language, trying to get an infinite number in there would be absurd to them. Am I lieing to a person if I say pi = 3.14? Well “technically” its not 3.14, but the person would get the point. I am sure the audience of this passage gets the point.. Like one commenter said, the passage is meant to show what the object looked like.
Now in regards to how literal the Bible is:
I believe the Bible is literal, except where it says it is not literal, or when using poetic language. So basically if a passage gives an allagory/parable, then explains it somewhere else, then that passage was non-literal. Or if for instance “As a deer pants for rivers of water, so my soul longs for you” that is poetic. or “She had hair like a dove”, is poetic, its not saying her hair was made out of birds. Be realistic.
However on all other parts, I believe the Bible literally.
oh, and alakazarm, It was written in Hebrew, not Aramaic.
I have a common caution that I express to people, and that is to beware of rabid personalities.
For instance, rabid republicans, rabid democrats, rabid racists, rabid atheists, rabid christians.
I like your post, because anyone reading your comments can see that you are a perfect example of a rabid personality.
By the by, did you contemplate the possibility that this vessel was somewhat elliptical in nature? An ellipse that was 10 cubits wide at its widest point could still be 30 cubits in circumference. The text just said “circular”, and that’s pretty vague.
I hate to side with the biblical literalists here, but this argument is nonsense.
Say that when they took their measurements, they rounded to the nearest cubit. So the circumference was actually somewhere between 29.5 and 30.49 cubits, and the diameter was between 9.5 and 10.49 cubits.
Calculating from these rounded measurements, the value of pi could be anywhere from 2.81 to 3.21.
So yeah, pi could be “3″ when you take into account rounding errors.
One thing I hate worse than fundamentalist Christians is obnoxious atheists who want to win the debate using ridicule.
I’m pretty sure they couldn’t even do division back then, so this entire article is debunked as of now.
From John Murry
“The ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius (pi) is 3.1415926……only on a flat plane. It’s different if you draw the circle on the surface of, for example, a sphere.
So we cannot prove that the value of pi stays the same over long periods of time. This is because we cannot prove that the local curvature of space-time has remained constant.
Also, if the universe is a fractal and has fractional dimensionality, then there could easily be not 3 spacial dimensions, but pi (or some other figure) spacial dimensions. It could be that when you measure pi, you are just measuring the fractal dimensionality of the universe.
So don’t be too sure about the constancy of math constants. The more we know, the more we realise how little we know, and how wonderous the universe is. ”
Look I find this amusing….but I hate bastardizations of Math. I know you make reference to hyperbolic geometry but what I really find funny is the fact that this is the equation for the area of a circle in hyperbolic geometry:
Area = Area = 4 pi sinh^2(r/2)
What? Pi exist and is used in the hyperbolic plane. Hmm…also you can have a set with PI numbers in it? Are you really that much of a moron that you know absolutely nothing about set theory? Explain to me how in a set that is the basis for my dimension or the dimension of the universe it contains exactly PI elements? Well, a little basic linear algebra can help you there bud. It can’t b/c it doesn’t make any sense. It can have 3 distinct basis vectors and .141592… of another basis vector??? You lose please stop quoting some pseudointellectual BS. PLEASE STOP BASTARDIZING MATH
Why is it that every argument from a hardcore atheist only consists of sarcasm and ridicule? I’m just as skeptical as you are, but I’m not a pompous asshole about my beliefs. You talk about shoving things down peoples throats… look at you, basically calling people idiots for their true beliefs. It really doesn’t get shoved down your throat more than that. Grow up you jerk.
[...] God said Pi=3 ( The old rant gets a thorough workout ) [...]
reyalp:
Your guidance on common caution; truly wise words !
too many comments, too little original thought
@ Hair Pie Lover and @sigh
You are not exactly correct – Genesis 1:26 did NOT get translated correctly. However the real issue is that it is misinterpreted. Also however, the use of “us” is on purpose. Although sigh is incorrect in the why – it was not to state or even allude to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Because those are Christian ideals, and this is HEBREW SCRIPTURE we are talking about. Funny how they always claim that Hebrew Scripture is replaced by the New Testament and is no longer valid, however they will continuously refer to it to justify certain things in “their book”. And even by calling it New Testament vs Old Testament they try to reduce the status of “our book”. But their misinterpretations are not their fault…because it’s not their book. It’s the book of the Hebrews, which are my people. (credit to Lewis Black here)
The meaning of “…Let us make man our image after our likeness…” is quite simple.
Rashi…”
26. Let us make man
The modesty of the Holy One, Blessed be He, we learn from here: because man in the image of angels was [to be] created and they would be jealous of him; therefore, He took counsel with them. And when He judges the Kings He [likewise] takes counsel with His Heavenly household; for we find in the case of Ahab (1 Kings 22.19) to whom Mic(ai)ah said: “I saw the Lord sitting on His throne and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left,” – Has [He} then a right and left [hand] before Him? But [it means that] there were those [angels] on the right for acquittal and those on the left for conviction, And so (Dan. 4.14): “The matter is by the decree of the watchers and the sentence by the word of the holy ones.” Here also He sought permission with His {Heavenly] household. He said to them: “There are some higher beings, in my likeness. If there should be none in my likeness among the lower beings there would be jealousy among the works of creation.” (Sanh. 38)
- Let us make man
Even though they [the angels] did not help Him in His creation [of man] and it is in place for the skeptics to disagree [with the use of the plural “us”], Scripture does not shrink from teaching us the way of the world [proper conduct] and the trait of modesty that the might should consult with and seek permission from the lowly. But if it [Scripture] had written: “I shall make man,” we would not learn that He was speaking with His [Heavenly] court but to Himself. And the rebuttal to the heretics is written next to it [the following verse] “and He created man” and it [Scripture] did not write “and they created.”
- In Our image
In our form.
- After our likeness
Refers to our power to understand and discern.
…End Rashi”
In regards to Genesis 3, as my Rabbis taught me, all things are known to the Holy One, Blessed be He – except man’s reverence to heaven. This is the “free will” bestowed on man.
Rashi has an equally enlightening comment on Genesis 3, but I am not going to waste the time on this audience.
And the Torah was written by G-d, (but not the New Testament) – but as a Jew I would never push that on anyone as Christians do. In fact, Jews openly turn away converts. You are going to have to really want to convert on your own, and do a lot of learning first.
And I hate pushy people anyway…
@ artfuldodger
If you had even been around my wife and daughter during their menstrual period you might have appreciated the 7 day hut idea… (I am not even going there)
You people are fucking idiots.
@Jonathan Enns – don’t call my language vague just because you can’t read it.
Nerddddddsssssssssssss
Oh man, this is wonderful. I’ll have to show this to my math geek friends. They’ll get a kick out of this.
A self-proclaimed atheist who takes great pains to investigate the bible. Interesting….
Even more funny – a self-proclaimed Christian who takes great pains to investigate science. Amusing…
How about we all agree that we are each free to believe AS WE CHOOSE. Even the seeming exactness of mathematics and science is an illusion based on human constructs.
People have been in conflict from the beginning of time trying to convince each other that “I’m right and you’re wrong!”
Observation: even highly intelligent individuals disagree in dramatic fashion over so much that it staggers the mind. NO TWO PEOPLE ON EARTH HOLD EXACTLY THE SAME BELIEFS, and VERY FEW (IF ANY) BELIEFS ARE HELD BY EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH.
Supposition: God created the universe (whether by evolution or the Big Bang or in 6 implausibly short 24-hour days, it doesn’t much matter) with this singular objective: to leave each person FREE TO CHOOSE what they believe (or not) by making almost nothing (beyond “I think, therefore I am”) absolutely provable and thus universally accepted truth.
Kind of sheds a whole new light on the Bible, I think. NOTHING CAN BE PROVEN or DISPROVEN BY THE BIBLE – because it all comes back to WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
So good news – believe whatever you choose and live with the consequences.
Dave
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit « Gospel of Reason (tags: politics math humor) [...]
Truth Brush, I think you meant “He seems to believe he’s knocked down 2,000 years of circle-jerk. And he’s invited the blogosphere to join his scholarship.”
I hope that helps. I love to see you credulous theists flail for your nonexistent deity. The fact that you don’t get the author’s point is like an extra scoop of Ben & Jerry’s on the logic sundae.
Val, you said “Why is it that every argument from a hardcore atheist only consists of sarcasm and ridicule?”
Because it is funny?
“You talk about shoving things down peoples throats… look at you, basically calling people idiots for their true beliefs. It really doesn’t get shoved down your throat more than that.”
Val, if you thought about it, you would likely see how absurd this statement is. It gets rammed up our collective asses much harder than that in the form of religious doctrines being forced upon everyone via legislation.
I couldn’t resist.
He even states a few times in comments and updates that this is of the form reductio ad absurdum. “In formal logic, reductio ad absurdum is used when a formal contradiction can be derived from a premise, allowing one to conclude that the premise is false.” – From Wikipedia
Creationist stance (remember this word Creationist), everything in the Bible is absolute literal truth (or “correct”). A “circle” measures 30 around it’s perimeter/circumference and had a diameter of 10 in the Bible. So it follows that Pi, the constant used to calculate perimeter/circumference, is 3 by basic algebra. This is generally known to be wrong which lets you then conclude that the the Bible is *not* absolute literal truth (or “correct”), a contradiction.
Looks like a solid argument to me *shrug*
All he’s trying to say is the faction of Bible believers that take the stance that the Bible can’t be wrong in any way shape or form are closed minded luddites that need to think instead of having all of the “facts” of the world fed to them.
No more, no less. Stop pulling more out of this than is there. He’s stating one specific subset of a specific religious faction is idiotic. Which you can then take further if you want, but that’s all I get out of the article. He even points out some of the counterarguments which help further prove the *specific* point being made here.
Go team Venture.
[...] Here is proof that Pi = 3 [...]
To say that the Bible says pi = 3.0 would be to take the bible literalistically not literally. Interestingly, since pi is an irrational number, both answers can be considered correct. Based on the technology of the day, 3.0 is a good accuracy. This ranks as one of the stupidest arguments against the Bible that I have ever heard.
Do you read aramaic? No? Well then you haven’t read the original text. You don’t know what a ‘cubit’ refers to, nor does anyone really know the standards for measurement back then. So why are you basing your high-school math argument off of something that you plucked out of cynical atheist polemic arguments?
I wish you luck in pursuit of honest truth, but your objectives are obscured by your personal agenda and insurmountable bias.
Kristen the flying spaghetti monsters promises me eternal meatballs in the afterlife how can your god possible compete? Have fun riding your pi=3 bicycle and have a nice day.
[...] http://gospelofreason.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/god-said-pi-3-stand-by-your-beliefs-dammit/ [...]
You know that a cubit is the length of a man’s arm right? Grab a nearby guy, compare arm lengths, and tell me they are EXACTLY the same. For using dudes arms, 3.14159265… is a VERY small stretch from 3.
Wow…is this really an issue? I’ve been a Christian forever and I could really care less if the man who wrote this passage in the Bible really knew pi to the most infinite decimal point. Is this really supposed to rock my faith? An interpretation of an interpretation? Snore.
it all so says who shall add or subtract from these words Your name shall be subtracted from the book of life. such a sentance shows words can be wrongly added or subtracted.
and You want to aurgue math with God? every thing You see is math every twig, rock, element, cloud every thing is a math equation.
the sadest thing about not having a God is all that Love is worth nothing and lost forever. ed
With regard to Solomon’s large bowl: I wonder what the calculation would be if the diameter was measured inside the basin and the circumference was measured on the outside, i.e., a handsbreadth further out??
Talk about squeezing the gnat and swallowing the camel.
I too used to think the Bible was absurd until I read the whole thing myself. My goal was to find all the mistakes and supposed “contradictions”. I was armed with an extensive list of these fallacies that was given to me by some atheist friends, and this pi issue was on it. I was shocked to find out that it is shockingly historically accurate – non-fiction actually.
Evolution…hmm…even when I was a die hard atheist, I thought the THEORY to be quite stupid, and nothing more than the result of the playful imagination of some people who wanted to be known as scientists. The “proof” of the “pi” is about as ridiculous as the “proof” that our universe is merely a gigantic accident.
Darwin who??????,
Oh yeah… when I got done reading the Bible 2 times, I decided to believe in Jesus and he completely transformed my life. All my pride in my academic & other achievements was turned into love for Him & others. We still talk to this day!
My hope is that if you also read it with an open mind, and the desire to know the truth – you’ll find it.
God bless you all!
PI = 7.23
Because I like it better that way!
Atheist rules and I hope that someday christians will reject their web of inconsistencies so that they may accept reality, rationality and reason into their hearts!
Oh joy!
Weee!
I am so amazed and ha! I do believe you, hee hee.
I am so sick of people trying to divide the world into bible-lovers (they say they’re good) and bible-nonbelievers (who are “evil”).
Personally, I believe you that the Bible is literature… not sure about it being a page-turner though.
I just noticed something. In this big, ongoing argument, each of us simply takes the side we were already on and finds ways to support it. And then we insult the other side.
Don’t mean to be critical, it just doesn’t seem like we’re getting anywhere anymore.
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit « Gospel of Reason The value for pi used in calculators is 3.141592654. But if we look at the word of God, it states that the ratio of the circumference to the diameter is 30:10 cubits. In other words: 3 (tags: religion funny math pi mathematics) [...]
Malachias Invictus – Good news man, after high school, when you get a real life, people don’t randomly approach you nearly as much trying to talk to you about things that you don’t have time to talk about.
Honestly, are people really approaching you on a constant basis telling you that you are going to burn in hell? Or are you just angry that it is happening somewhere to someone else?
[...] Obviously, it has arrived. [...]
Okay first of all, I appreciate this blog even though I do not agree with it because it has obviously gotten many intelligent people to speak their mind about some very complex issues.
Myself? I read the Bible, I believe the Bible. When I see a special about Science/Mathematics/etc:Proving/Disproving the Bible, I take it all in & enjoy it but it does not sway my faith at all because that is what my relationship with God is. A “faith-based” relationship. I don’t need God to “prove” Himself to me.
I have to agree with GARETH from a post above me.
(Gareth – June 13th, 2007 at 2:00 pm-go read it)
These people WERE Middle Easterners from the ancient past, but still, any time we think of “marvels of architecture”, what do we think of?
The Pyramids, Greece, Rome…all these were around the same era as Christ and the Bible.
So why would we doubt their knowledge of architecture.
Maybe it IS an approximation, maybe it isn’t.
Point is, again, agreeing with Gareth, if Athiets don’t believe, then leave it alone eh?
There are more important things in the world to do (feeding the hungry, ending war, curing disease, aiding the elderly, helping your neighbor with their fence) than to spend all your energies on “proving you are right”.
Do Christians “point fingers” and the like as well? Of course, and to my brothers and sisters I would encourage you to dig deeper in your OWN walk with God. DOn’t turn a blind eye to science, history, etc, but still, always hold onto your faith and LIVE the Word and you wont have to go around bashing everyone. The only ones Christ “bashed” were the religious leaders…follow His example, Jesus LOVED everyone and pointed them to God with His own example.
(Crap, i said I wouldn’t get preachy in this thing, anyway, there ya go.)
Again, I appreciate this post.
God bless you all,
I encourage you all to seek the truth,
Kevin L. Briles
Easy tiger, fractions were only just coming into use by Egyptians around 1000 bc so how on earth would an ancient Israelite know about how to express Pi as a fraction?
I can’t stand it anymore!
How dare you people dictate who I CAN and CANNOT love and make love to!
How dare you try to FORCE your beliefs on me through the LAW of the country!
How dare you JUDGE me just because I hold to different beliefs from you!
I reject the bigoted accusation that I am amoral, corrupted or a pervert.
It is all of you, liberal and conservative alike, who are the real criminals when you arrest me for trying to HAVE HOT WET SEX WITH MY DOBERMAN PUPPIES!!!!!11!!
I mean, what’s so gross about that… They’s my best frens.
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/08/30/morality-of-absolutes-and-relatives/
“if Athiets don’t believe, then leave it alone eh?” Why? why not point out each and every error in religious thinking? If I make an error I would hope that someone would point it out to me so that I can correct myself. I wouldn’t want to go through life making a complete tit of myself by telling people 1 + 1 = 3.
One day evolved humans will look back and wonder how their primitive ancestors could possibly have believed such nonesense. At least I hope so.
As we all know, the ancients knew *nothing* of our advanced concepts of “approximation” and “rounding off”…
[...] when you feed off of zealotry and superstition to further an anti-freedom agenda… this is where you eventually find yourself. The Iranian [...]
Hilarious.
Jdavis2, spare us the bullshit story about being an atheist, reading the Bible to find contradictions, and finding none. I doubt any fish are biting. As for your criticism of evolution as a “theory,” you display a shocking ignorance of both what a scientific theory actually *is*, and how powerful a theory evolution is. In case you did not know, pretty close to all biological science is based upon it.
Val, don’t be a moron. I am not even close to a high school student. As for your criticism, I am sure it is easy to sit there smugly knowing that your government supports your particular brand of religious delusion. The rest of us are, in increasingly large numbers, sick of it. The United States is supposed to be a secular nation, yet pious crackpots have managed to insert an offensive religious motto onto the currency, and better yet, shove religion down the throats of many schoolchildren in the form of the Pledge of Allegiance. Add a healthy dose of homophobia, unwarranted intrusion into the private lives of others, anti-science lobbying, stripping people of choices based upon religious dogma, prohibition, and other such nonsense, and you get a secular population that is up in arms.
Hmmm…one other point in addition to all these great points. Does the Bible simply record the dimensions that Solomon used while building the temple or does it say, “God says Pi=3″? Many times the Bible simply records things as they are and does not share how they should be. Perhaps (and that’s a big perhaps) what you are saying is true, and the best they had back then was an imperfect measurement. Does that mean God endorsed it or merely recorded their imperfect efforts to serve Him? Read the passage again. The Bible merely records Solomon’s efforts. If you’ve got a problem, blame it on Solomon. I guess Solomon must not exist because he messed up! What’s with this logic anyway? God works with us in our imperfections as we seek to go to the next level in our relationship with Him.
Perhaps this is yet another attempt to make the Bible say something that it never said to begin with. Nice try buddy, keep digging. It’s amazing how deep people go into reading the Bible to try to disprove it that they even are reading something as miniscule as the dimensions of Solomon’s temple with that much vigor! What reaches people have to go to find problems in the Bible! Put’s me to shame and I am a believer!
Imagine what would happen if people started listening to the Bible instead of trying to spend so much time disproving it!
Did you really think you would get any of “Bible literalist” to reject the Bible because of this? Show the body of Jesus and then maybe we’ll talk.
Your thoughts are too deep for me. Gee, I thought this was going to be a creative article on the Trinity (Pi = 3). Sorry, not a math-major — so much of your well-thought out logic is largely missed by me (although I’m sure enjoyed by others of like mind). Appreciate your creative approach, however.
http://warriorsink.wordpress.com/2007/06/14/the-doctrine-of-a-personal-relationship-with-god/
Oh — That’s Warriors Ink (not warrior sink) Ha!
To say that there is no God doesn’t require the same amount of faith as to say there is one – that’s assuming that both concepts are just as likely as one another. Whereas I reckon that if the universe is incredibly improbable, the only thing more improbable would be the being that created it, thus rendering the idea of a God more improbable than the idea of there not being one.
Most atheists aren’t incredibly dogmatic when it comes to their rejection of God – most have the same attitude as they would to any other hypothesis, in that if overwhelming evidence (lets say, the same kind of evidence as is clearly available for Darwinian evolution) was brought about that there really -was- an intelligent designer of the universe, it would have to be accepted. Somehow, I don’t think it’s going to happen.
There’s a huge difference in believing the literal fact of a 2,000 year old book without any proof or reason, and believing that, for example, in a right angled triangle, a squared + b squared = c squared. There’s a proof for the literal truth of Pythagoras; there just isn’t one for the Bible (and faith alone doesn’t count!)
and @Hoverfrog: I hope so too, if we haven’t wiped ourselves out before that happens, possibly in the name of faith.
Joe, you said “Imagine what would happen if people started listening to the Bible instead of trying to spend so much time disproving it!” Indeed! Imagine:
“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)
“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” (Leviticus 26:29)
“…their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)
“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” (Numbers 31:17-18)
I love it! Let’s hear it for the moral superiority of the Bible!
“Imagine what would happen if people started listening to the Bible instead of trying to spend so much time disproving it! ”
Things like the Crusades perhaps or attacks on abortion clinics or homosexuals.
I love it! Apparently so do 300 hundred other people (current comment count when I posted)
It’s sad how people simply trust the bible blindly just because they were taught to do so when they were children by people who had the same experience, and those were taught by people who had the same experience, and it goes on and on for a couple of millennial.
It always has surprised me who defensive and insulted most Christians get when you challenge their beliefs. You don’t even have to get into the “Does God exist?” conversation (that’s too much for some people to swallow). What the author of the article has posted here is more than enough to plunge fear into the hearts of some and generate violent reactions.
When will it stop? When will we trust reason? It’s a sad world we live in.
Once again I make the observation that atheists do not have a problem with the existence of God, they have a problem with His character.
Also, blaming the Bible for the Crusades and attacks on abortion clinics is like me blaming George Washington for everything George Bush does. I make no defence for the Crusades, or attacks on abortion clinics or homosexuals, and I’m pretty sure you’re not going to find a defense for them in the Bible either. Endorsing the Bible doesn’t mean you have to endorse “church” history. Don’t get me started on church history because I’ll be more than tempted to join your band wagon.
Malachias Invictus – Your Bible passages are all from the Old Testament written specifically for the nation of Israel for a specific period of their history and are never commanded to continue on today. Those who see the “modern” church as “God’s replacement” for the nation of Israel are greatly confused about their Bible.
“I love it! Let’s hear it for the moral superiority of the Bible!”
If you haven’t read about God’s mercy, love, and kindness to us in the Bible, you’ve only read about 10% of the Bible. The whole thing is God giving people chance after chance after chance to repent of their rebellion and to turn to Him. It is only God who exercises judgement and justice and those who think they act on His behalf in that juncture…well, let’s just say I personally believe God’s got a special hot spot reserved for them.
My duty is to respectfully share what the Bible teaches as truth, and if you don’t believe it, fine. Let’s part as friends. Anyone who has to try to force someone to believe something is very insecure in their own beliefs. But again, don’t get me started.
[...] blog I’ve read in awhile (that has nothing to do with television or entertainment). The Gospel of Reason had a post yesterday called “Pi=3″, and I was in tears from laughing so hard. [...]
There’s only one problem…
There’s only one problem…
THERE IS NO GOD
Now go have a beer, and think about the crap you’ve spouted.
As a Christian I sometimes wonder about things in the bible that don’t seem to run true.
However I do know that Jesus referred to the Scriptures and so they must have been true enough for Him.
And Jesus must be true because most of his apostles died for His name, claiming that He was the Son of God and has risen from the dead.
All this talk of denying God and discrediting the Bible comes from Satan the father of all lies.
Atheists want to believe there is no God because then they do not have to answer to any one, they can be free to live life the way that they choice.
Satan wants you to believe there is no God because then you belong to him.
And you know, on a final note, no matter what you say about the bible, when you get through with the nit picking and look at it. It is the most amazing thing.
Here is a challenge for you all……try and live you life according to the values set down in the bible and see how your life goes!
And I don’t mean burning goats or what ever, I mean
Love people and treat them as you would want to be treated. (The world would be so much better, no wars or violence. And yes I know many wars have been fought in the name of religion, but that is of man, not of Jesus)
Kev
“There’s only one problem…
THERE IS NO GOD
Now go have a beer, and think about the crap you’ve spouted.”
Wow! That was a blessing!
Hey look, now I’m comment number 305. I bet nobody’s EVER going to read this far down the list. Cool…
Love it! An island of rationality in a sea of insanity! I still don’t get how any rational person can ignore science and believe in creationism yet do math at the same time!
Okay, I read this book once, I don’t know how old it was but probably over 2000 years old. There was one thing written in this book. It was “Written by God”. I believe the book, even if it is over 2000 years old and that there is no proof of the fact that God wrote it.
I just find it absurd that people think that they should act exactly as a book says. Of course we shouldn’t kill other people just for fun and so on but quoting a book that was written in a totally different society and thinking that it still applies to the present world is just a bad excuse for not thinking yourself.
I don’t belive in God but I still act according to a lot of the “rules” written in the book – I don’t steal, I don’t kill others and so on. I don’t have anything against believers untill they start accusing me of acting wrong. Shouldn’t christianity be about being tolerant and forgiving?
A-”I don’t have anything against believers untill they start accusing me of acting wrong. Shouldn’t christianity be about being tolerant and forgiving?”
A, how can someone be forgiving unless there is something to forgive? Jesus said, “physician, heal yourself.” He also said that he came, “to seek and to save the lost.” How can he not save us unless we know we’re lost? How can he heal us unless we’re sick? How can he forgive us of wrong unless we have actually done something wrong? Don’t be offended by what the Bible says about our need for God because Jesus didn’t even come to condemn us. He didn’t need to, we’re already condemned (John 3:16-18 states this). He came to get us out of this mess we’re in and to help us, not to rub it in even more.
Do we tolerate those who are different? Absolutely! There is no excuse for those who persecute others of different beliefs. The only people Jesus condemned were religious hypocrites. He came for the rest of us who know we need help.
By the way, I think you’d be surprised at just how relevant the Bible is for today. Why else would people try so hard to discredit it? They don’t do that with the writings of Homer, Plato, or Aristotle.
I don’t get it. If you don’t have faith, great. If you do, great. Why on Earth would you put this much time and effort into attacking (alright, maybe not the best word… nitpicking) faith? You’re guilty of exactly what you find distasteful in the fundamentalists… you’re illustrating a need to say “I’m right.” To be honest, it’s kind of tired and sad.
Great!!!!!!!!!!
Another clue for you…….
Pi= 3
Personnal Identity = 3 for a beginning
Open Systems Interconnection level 3
IP adress
What is after numbers and words?
Kind regards
Jim Courbis
http://angejimcourbis.wordpress.com/
For those who can understand French
Hey guys, it’s me God. I’m sorry about all of this. I told King about the correct value of Pi. He forgot it though, cuz he was a drunk. I’ll make sure it’s corrected in Bible 2.0.
Dad, wtf are you doin? I told you not to tell anyone about Bible 2.0 yet. Damn it, PR is not going to like it. You know how the Pope hates spoilers.
LOL
http://celestialconfession.wordpress.com/
@Hebrew
I hope you didn’t think I was making a case for the Trinity or trying to push anything down anyone’s throat. What I’m saying is I didn’t *have* an answer, but this is how some would teach it, as a starting point for others to maybe look into things on their own and try to understand others’ beliefs before making a decision about them.
I really appreciate your post and found it pretty educational. I accept that you are right that this is a Hebrew text and should be studied in that context. Thanks for furthering my understanding as I am truly looking for it. I wish everyone else would take a similar approach, but I guess that would be asking way too much when regurgitation of their preconceived notions and spewing of vitriol are such an easy road.
It’s too bad we can’t continue this and similar discussions, but this is clearly not the place and to post email addresses would be a grave mistake. :p
I said
understand others’ beliefs before making a decision about them
I should have ADDED
and understand their own before attempting to discuss them
As for you, Hebrew, you did a good job explaining what you clearly have taken much time to study and understand. Thanks again.
Perhaps this post was meant as a joke. Anyone, including a fundamentalist (which I am not), can tell you that a literal interpretation of the Bible doesn’t imply that you accept obvious approximations to physical constants as the God-given truth.
If this is as sophisticated as your understanding of the Bible and its interpretation gets, then maybe you should stick to just bashing Christians openly.
I totally agree with “Hebrew” that the Torah should be understood in the context of a “Hebrew” text. Especially Christians should understand this and know that many of the promises given to the nation of Israel in the Torah are not meant for “Gentiles” but will still ultimately be fulfilled by the LORD.
The Bible is clear that we can apply the Jewish history and promises to the Jewish people can serve as “examples” for us to learn from, but they are meant for, and will be fulfilled by the nation of Israel, not by Christians.
A Bible believing Christians should love the Jewish people and respect their faith in God.
Any time you look at the Bible, considerations on its original wording must be taken. Even Christians must be held to this standard, and study the oldest texts in order to gain the true meaning of what was said. You said in your article, “You can either accept that the word of God is fallible and men have improved upon it.” Well, I accept that men have attempted to improve upon it, and that men have interpreted it according to their own bias’ for generations. That doesn’t mean that God’s Word is fallible, but the men interpreting and “improving” on it and misunderstanding the importance of details ARE fallible. Follow the link I’ve pasted to this article:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1998/158/
The interpretation of pi=3 assumed in your article is a mistake based on faulty translation from the original Hebrew.
@lowerleavell
I agree. In one of my earlier posts I reference people who don’t even understand their own beliefs. Certain Christians who have negative or ambivalent feelings toward Jews have not even followed the teachings of their own text, at least not as I have understood them in my studies so far.
So I repeat the call for everyone, regardless of what you believe right now, or what you have been told all your lives, to read / study / think for yourselves. Let your teachers be your guides, sure, and some of them are probably exactly right. But cross-reference *everything*, if not to logic and reason, then at least to your own text. By relaxing and taking everything without question, you become the blind sheep you are accused of being.
And be open to the text of others, all of you — Biblically it is not a sin to be uncertain or to question, and scientifically it’s just part of the job to investigate thoroughly. As it’s been said, the hardcore scientific atheists often seem no better than the hardcore fundamentalists when it comes to discussion of alternative beliefs.
well what ever but it’s no use having pi = 3 because then we would just need a new name for the number which we need to calculate so many things..circles n stuff
no wonder pi has changed.. that’s because it gets preciser all the time! it’s a number with infinite numbers after the comma.
of course you could call it 3 but if you want more accurate calculations then you have to accept the pi as it is defined now and will be redefined.
Clearly there was a typo in the bible:
“It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.”
should read
“It took a line of 40 ( arctan(1/2) + arctan(1/3) ) cubits to measure around it.”
or many of its variants. Much more elegant, don’t you think?
Yes, you are correct. The Bible has at least this one error. Actually it has more than this one. Usually, most Evangelical Christians say that the Bible is “infallable”, not “inerrent”. Since it is a document totally written by people, copied by people, and interpreted by people, there are always going to be errors in it. But it is also a document that is God Breathed and trustworthy. It is not fiction.
When we study the Bible, we need to be careful to take into consideration it’s historical context, literary genre, and authorial intent. The men who were directed by God to write the Bible were not experts in science or math. Your argument seems to be somewhat of a red-herring.
Your issue is not with the scientific accuracy of the Bible. It is with those who would force it down your throat. You don’t have to believe it. However, if you write off the Bible based on how people have treated you, I hope you are right. If you are not, then God really does exist, you are accountable for your sin. The good news is that Jesus died in your place so you can spend eternity in heaven with God. I suggest reading more of the gospel of John.
Wow, El…you really pissed some people off. Not bad.
[...] Here it is. [...]
Funny stuff!
It is unfortunate though, that the argument is always between the fundamentalist and the atheist. When one looks at the text through the lens of historical criticism, one can realize that mythology and metaphor can at times say more about the reality of something than our best science can… but not about science itself.
The text was written by a multitude of different authors over a long period of time, always in retrospect, and always flush with that author’s interpretation. That reality must be taken into account. These were people in a specific society with a specific culture and scientific worldview writing this stuff. Why people need the text (or the Pope for Catholics) to be infallible is beyond me. It is a source. A big one for me, personally, but because, well because of feminist theology and liberation theology to be honest. Wikipedia has decent articles on both of those.
The really funny thing is, if the religious right and the fundamentalists really want to use the Bible as the sole source for morality, and they really wanted to take the text seriously, (meaning they actually find out what the text meant when it was written before trying to apply it to today) then they wouldn’t be nearly as “right” and “conservative” as they are.
Read Jim Wallis’ very readable book,
God’s Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn’t Get It.
… for more info.
The right has the wrong attitude and politics, and the left doesn’t realize that the Bible is more about Earthly justice for the poor and oppressed than the “Right” wants you to believe, and the text can be of great cultural and inspirational value to the left instead of an opponent.
As the type of Christian that I am (friend to atheists, homosexuals, feminist, social justice oriented, pluralistic), it makes me sad when I think about how the “Right” has hi-jacked what could have been/could be a wonderful and progressive tradition. I still have hope though, which is perhaps more than anything, what makes me a Christian.
@Sandy, El
If that’s your goal, you’re *worse* than your perceived enemy.
you losers are as big a bunch of idiots as the Bible thumpers.
I like your point that some people can take the bible literally down to the last detail, without considering the context. But the thought that Moses may have been using approximate measures sort of ruined the humor for me.
Significant digits, anyone?
I know you don’t care and that you probably won’t even think twice about what I say but you gave two options, accepting the word of God as fallible (and screwing your beliefs) or holding your beliefs, dispite the facts.
What about a third (there are probably more), viewing the Bible as ‘God’s word’ (whatever that means) fallibly written by men…viewing the Bible as mans fallible interpretation of ‘God’s story’…
Yer, the Bible is fallible, any decent theologian will tell you that. Just because fallible men told us a book was infallible when it never was, is that reason to give up?
Tim, I think that’s a pretty good reason actually. The holy book supporting your God is shown to be false. Definitely time to embrace a different philosophy or at least to abandon the old one.
I’m sorry, I am honestly trying to see your point of view. But I don’t understand how one approximation, written AS an approximation and not as an exact measurement, makes an entire document fictional.
I understand you were trying to be ironic, but your inference just doesn’t make sense and doesn’t help your cause at all. It actually makes you look foolish.
What you should do is focus more on the fact that the bible cannot solve certain problems that science and math can. Esteem science and math all you want.
Of course the Bible was not meant to give us answers to the details of our physical origins, at least not in ways we can understand. Stick to expounding that theory and you will not ‘rile up’ so many so-called right-wing conservative fundie literalists….errr… n/m you probably will. But you will at least merit more intelligent discussion.
Joe, you said “Once again I make the observation that atheists do not have a problem with the existence of God, they have a problem with His character.” Wrong. Atheists do have a problem with the existence of a deity. Specifically, there is no credible evidence for such, and as an extraordinary claim, it requires extraordinary evidence. As for the “character” of this creature of mythology, it is utterly repugnant to anyone who is not a moral cripple.
You also said “I make no defense for…attacks on…homosexuals, and I’m pretty sure you’re not going to find a defense for them in the Bible either.” I am pretty sure I am, actually: In Leviticus 20:13 it says “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” That sounds like advocacy for violence against homosexuality to me.
You also try the old technique of claiming the Old Testament does not apply any longer. You are wrong, according to Jesus. “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:18), and “And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.” (Luke 16:17). Don’t try to weasel your way out of it, either: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2Peter:20-21)
Finally, you said “If you haven’t read about God’s mercy, love, and kindness to us in the Bible, you’ve only read about 10% of the Bible.” Quite frankly, I find such to be largely irrelevant. If you found out that Hitler loved orphans and little fuzzy puppies, and used to volunteer at soup kitchens, would that make him any less of a genocidal, reprehensible monster? If not, why does the Abrahamic god, who has engaged in mass genocide and advocated child-killing, rape, slavery, and all sorts of other nastiness, get a pass?
Lowerleavell, you said “I think you’d be surprised at just how relevant the Bible is for today. Why else would people try so hard to discredit it? They don’t do that with the writings of Homer, Plato, or Aristotle.”
Thinking people work (and not hard, mind you) to discredit supposedly infallible holy books because delusional faithheads use them to justify all manner of ugly and oppressive things. The reason people do not discredit the work of Homer, is that there are not Homerians running around claiming that everyone should live by the “literal truth of the Homerian epic.” As for philosophers, tons of later philosophers and other thinkers try to discredit or improve on their ideas all the time. This is healthy, and should be applied to religious ideas as well as philosophical ones.
Markcole, you claim there are errors in the Bible, then turn around and claim it to be trustworthy. How do you tell the difference between the erroneous and trustworthy passages?
Questioning a religion’s precepts is not hating it.
JCShutout: “…the left doesn’t realize that the Bible is more about Earthly justice for the poor and oppressed than the “Right” wants you to believe.”
All those parts about slaves obeying their masters are about Earthly justice for the poor and oppressed? All that “last shall be first, first shall be last” stuff sounds like it’s talking about justice in the afterlife, not “Earthly justice.” All you downtrodden just tough it out there, and surely things will be better after you die, mm’kay?
Love it!
And I enjoyed reading some of the comments here trying to justify the bible, can’t believe some people take this kinda thing that seriously!
Anyway, we all know that todays modern theory of pi is merely put forward by the devil, to try and trick the devout from their beliefs…like dinosaurs.
PI IS A SUPPOSED TO BE A MEASUREMENT NOT A CALCULATION. IN THIS DEBATE, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE MEASURING AND HOW MANY ARE CALCULATING?
First. Take a look at what was written:
“It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it – ten to a cubit.”
This is not a clear measurement, nor is it stating that this is an equation. It has a measurement of gourds and decoration. And the ring around the circle. This isn’t a “how to build Solomons Palace” guide. lol.
Its a description, not a building guide, and the way the text is written its not so clear as to what all the gourds include in their measument.
Second.
A Cubit is an UNSTABLE unit of measurement, but at the time thats what was used… you are talking about an understood unit of measurement that is not set in stone a unit of measurement that fluctuates.
How can you hope to get exacts from something that fluctuates?
This is from Wikipedia.
Cubit is the name for any one of many units of measure used by various ancient peoples and is among the first recorded units of length.
The cubit is based on measuring by comparing – especially cords and textiles, but also for timbers and stones – to ones forearm length. The Egyptian hieroglyph for the unit shows this symbol. It was employed consistently through Antiquity, the Middle-Ages up to the Early Modern Times.
Mark, you said “The men who were directed by God to write the Bible were not experts in science or math.” Judging from what they wrote, they were not experts on ethics or morals either. Why should we trust that book on *any* of those subjects?
@Malachias
Leviticus 20:13 is a red herring unless you also note that cursing ones parents and adultery are cause to be put to death. Obviously we aren’t punishing these things so severely either.
These were civil laws for the nation of Israel, to set them apart from other nations. While they clearly show God’s preferred behaviors (do not lie with men as with women + do not spill your seed = population growth for my chosen people), they do not show that all nations through all times will be held to the same consequences as the nation of Israel.
Since I am only studying these things as a third party, this might not be the endorsed views. There might be something else and I’d like to see Hebrew come back and give his take on it.
Before anyone freaks, “my chosen people” was used because I was writing the equation from God’s POV.
Also, for clarity, Lev. 20:1-2
1
The LORD said to Moses,
2
“Tell the Israelites: …
Not “Tell all nations”
Lord God,
I pray that you would open the spiritual eyes of the people who read this debate, and Lord that you by your Son would be Glorified. Lord we know that with out Jesus, eternity in hell awaits, even if people agree with your judgment or not, Lord you will still be Judge over each person here.
God your word says that each person will give an account for the life we live, every sin, every good thing, every lie, every cruel thing, every act against you.
And some day, their knees will bow, before you, and they will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Lord each of us, have sinned, Lord everyone needs your truth, God I ask for your blessing and drawing over the author of this blog, so that in the quest for knowledge and truth you would allow the authors eyes to be opened.
Amen.
“Even if I didn’t believe in Semi-Trucks, if I stepped out in front of one going 80mph, the truck would still be a force to be reckoned with.”
Your life is a lot like that, you can try to say its all a fallacy because of your how conclusions, but God is still going to be God, and at the end of the day, the truth is bigger than the both of us.
And I thought Pi was 2. At least the Bible’s an improvement.
What does his holiness the Sphagetti monster say? His ord is final R’amen
@David Montgomery
Some would teach that the wages of sin are death, and that Jesus was sent that none should perish but have eternal life.
If without Jesus one would perish, and not have eternal life, then how would that one burn for all eternity? The dead feel no pain, so to speak.
Could it be that in sin, without the gift of Jesus, the sinner is obliterated and simply denied entrance to paradise? Sme would teach this is the case.
It would be more logical to me that way. I wouldn’t want to see anyone suffer for all eternity, and I’m a wretched human right? If someone came and mutilated my family, my sense for vengance might go so far as to see them be put to death as well. Maybe that far. But burn for all eternity? No, not even them.
Take that a step further. I certainly wouldn’t want to see my kid suffer for all eternity. Regardless of how many times he rebels against me. So why would God create a system where he’d have to watch his creation suffer for all eternity — as opposed to just wiping it out?
Pi is a theoretical constant which is the ratio of the circumference of a perfect circle to its diameter. No circle on Earth can actually have this ratio, and if you computed this ratio for a circle you drew, you’d get probably 3.148, or 3.107, or something close to ‘pi’ but not exact. So, it is very likely that this (real life) bowl had a ratio of 3, because it wasn’t a theoretical circle, it was only (as the passage states) “circular in shape”.
Using you’re logic, you could never show someone a circle, because as soon as you did, I’d show you that the ratio of its circumference to diameter didn’t equal ‘pi’, but that it equaled 3.146 or something ‘close’ to pi.
And please don’t respond with “Well, they die over and over again for all eternity.” I’ve heard that before and it implies that you also live for all eternity.
And rereading I noticed you said eternity in hell, making no claim that hell is a state of burning. If your concept of hell is simply to perish and be destroyed, even if it is in a lake of fire (and after being destroyed, it ends since you have perished), then disregard my question.
When I’m dead I will be in precisely the same state as I was before I existed. No hell, no heaven, no anything.
I love how so many of you are quick to condemn those who take the Bible literally, then by the same token take the Bible literally to make a point for yourselves.
I honestly can’t believe some of the comments about how the Bible is a sham because God didn’t explicity define Pi or point out that Pi is infinite.
For starters lets get one thing straight, God didn’t write the Bible, man did.
Secondly, God also didn’t tell us anything about DNA or about a million other scientific discoveries we have made since the time these texts were written.
The Bible was meant as a guide for faith, a guide about how humans should respect eachother and their maker. It isn’t a book about God trying to prove he exists.
[...] Pi = 3 [...]
Literal interpretation of anything violates a healthy skepticism.
David Montgomery: OK; I’ll risk it. God, strike David! See? Nothing happened. God… strike me! Ah, I feel someth- no, just an itch. The truck argument is a fallacy. People who invoke God are definitely a force to be reckoned with. I would think twice before insulting a suicide bomber’s mom in his face (unless he were chained up). But God himself as a force is less harmful than a magnolia petal.
Grant is absolutely right.
Well, are we now to believe that Atheism is just another form of religion? The religious Atheist must revoke any and all other religions to prove his religion correct, and the one and true belief (religion)?
I see just the same religious fervor from atheists proving their atheism is the only true interpretation of the universe as many religious people do with their religious fervor proving that their religion is the only true interpretation of the universe.
Sigh…
Again, what someone else said in another blog: “Why is it that all religions do not apply to those not a member of the religion?”
And why must everyone try to convert others to their religion?
Sigh…
Scientists are often just as religious in their efforts to prove there is only one interpretation of the universe.
Sigh…
Just look at the Global Warming Religion – there is Global Warming and no one disputes this – but there is only one interpretation – it must be caused by man – terrible, horrible, carbon dioxide spewing man. No other causes can be mentioned or they are called heretical. The fact that the models only look at CO2 but do not include the water cycle, solar output, methane, etc., is a failing of the models. Human made models. So applying only solutions regarding CO2 is ridiculous until more is understood about the real causes of global warming. More research is stifled by the Global Warming by Man-Made CO2 religious bigots, since the world is now explained by the Holy Gospel of the CO2-only Model and there can be no changes to the Holy Model since it is now Gospel.
The same methodology appears in many places – it must be built into human nature…
@Ollie
Stop taking MY name in vain, now.
j/k
Ryan either the Bible is true and God exists or the Bible is false and God either doesn’t exist or is so alien to what we know to be reality that it doesn’t matter one way or another. The Bible cannot be a bit right or a bit wrong because then you get people claiming that some bits are right (like never working on the Sabbath) and that they’ll follow those bits while others say that working on Sunday (or Saturday) is OK but you must die if you happen to fancy fornicating with a member of your own sex.
To pick and choose renders the book meaningless. It is from the basis that it is fiction that you should define your own life. You can take moral lessons from any work of fiction and few would argue with you as long as it caused no harm. In fact you’d be better off following the morality of “Lord of the Rings” than the bible. That Frodo was really brave and Sam was very loyal. Of course you don’t because it is fiction.
OK, so from the Multiverse point of view, 3.14… is perfectly legit in our universe, and 3.0 is perfectly legit in some other universes, perhaps many of them. If all of these were constructed by God how would we know?
How do we disprove God or prove God?
Read Thomas Aquinas sometime, he was one of the more eloquent and interesting writers on the topic of proving or disproving God.
Ollie, to continue your analogy though, if a new model arose for global warming that withstood rigorous testing then it would be adopted. You can’t say that about any religion.
@hoverfrog
It also prohibits fornicating with members of the opposite sex, and again, the death penalty was part of the civil code for the nation of Israel, not all nations.
Again, everyone please do at least *some* research before you (deep breath) repeat what you think you’ve heard someone else say that they think they read or someone might have said is what it maybe means but I haven’t looked myself so I’ll just spew it forth again even though it’s already been clarified in posts above but really I’ve heard before somewhere that maybe it might mean this and I can’t possibly have heard wrong because I’m a floating amphibian for Jef–err–for God’s sake.*
Got it yet?
* Yep, that was a big hard to read run on. There was a symbolic reason I made it so. Think about it.
“How do we disprove God or prove God? ”
First state your hypothesis and then test it.
What is God?
Where is the evidence, what are the effects and how can they be measured?
Thomas Aquinas’ Proofs are flawed. He assigns divine meaning to things that do not require them. Read them and reassess them from a logical, atheist point of view. Go on.
Sorry that was kind of rude. I’m just trying to figure why everyone keeps repeating everything instead of going and having a look for themselves.
Sigh, it doesn’t matter what the religious rule is. Whether is applies to Israelites, to fishmongers or to people who keep parrots. It’s a work of fiction. Or rather works of fiction, written from second and third hand accounts, translated (often badly) and just plain edited so that it says what the editors wanted it to say.
You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make.
@hoverfrog
I don’t see how a prohibition for the nation of Israel to work on the Sabbath or lie with men as they lie with women, establishing a code which they did actually follow, disrupts the historical account?
Are you saying that because we no longer follow the code of the nation of Israel, that they must never have?
I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to understand your view.
[...] 14th, 2007 psipsina I commend this otherwise stupid story to your attention only because of the opening [...]
It is incumbent on the Atheist to prove there is no God… again where is the proof? I think the jury might be out for a long time. Faith is not a proof based methodology… at least not yet. Confusing faith and logic IS the confusion.
In my opinion science only proves that there is a God. The complexities of the universe are far beyond our comprehension. We can only see small pieces of it. And, the realities of our existance are not just probability based. Too many probabilities and scientific constants would have to be manipulated for we humans to be here. There are just too many coincidences in science to make us possible as the end result of evolution. It would lead one to believe that some or maybe all of the probabilities and constants were predetermined. Just small variations in many of these probablities and constants and we would not exist.
This is a fun discussion…thanks for your input @Hoverfrog. And, I still think Thomas Aquinas has made some good points. It is refreshing to read many ancient writers and realize just how similar their thought processes were to our own, and that they wrestled with many of the same questions as we do today.
“As an aside, I really wish atheists would get a life. If there is no eternal significance to life, we are all going to be dead in 100 years and none of this will matter. Why do atheists spend so much time caring what other people (who I guess are just conglomerations of atoms at the end of the day) think?”
If our time on Earth is but a heartbeat of eternity, and you will spend timeless eons at God’s right hand, then why do you care that some people need to “get a life”?
Also: If the bible is to be taken literally, then Jesus was an actual lamb of God.
I’m saying that the rules themselves are arbitrary and hence without value. The fact that people followed (and still follow) them doesn’t make them good rules. Why shouldn’t I work on Saturday or have sex with whoever is willing to have sex with me?
The rules laid down may have had logical reasons 2000 years ago. Establish a day of rest so that workers are not overly exploited and worked to death. Ban homosexuality so that the religious population grows. It makes sense. I’m saying that these rules are no more divine than a rule not to wear the colour yellow in the presence of a butcher.
—
When providing alternate theories it is not vital to utterly disprove the existing or incumbent theory. You simply need to lay the theory out so that it is sufficiently different and more accurate than the incumbent theory. I don’t need to prove that a bat is not a bird. I just need to prove that a bat is actually a mammal.
“Ollie – June 14th, 2007 at 8:08 pm”
You say there’s a man in the sky who governs everything that happens on Earth (and in the entire universe). But you say it’s incumbent on ME to prove otherwise? Huh?
Science leads to the conclusion that God created the Earth? Huh?
Also, evolution didn’t set out to “create” humans. Your argument is like saying it’s impossible that I just got to work “by accident,” considering all of the variables and coincidences that had to occur. (That car has to swerve at the last second to avoid hitting me, the guy who delievered the gasoline to the gas station had to be born, his parents had to be born, etc.) But no one believes the universe was organized in such a way to allow me to get to work today. Or, well, I don’t believe I’m the center of the universe. Maybe you hold different views of your significance.
I’m not a believer in the bible. But it has been re-written a shit load of times.
@Ollie
“Just small variations in many of these probablities and constants and we would not exist.”
I *think* (still being new to studying all this) that evolution science would say that you are precisely right, and/but some other form of being would exist. Or some alternate form of ourselves. Something that “worked” in the alternate environment.
In other words, creation says “the environment was designed to support our being”. Evolution says “we would develop into whatever environment we had”.
So whereas in my studies I’m coming closer to belief in something higher than ourselves, I don’t think this argument is the best one to make.
Sigh, you said “Leviticus 20:13 is a red herring unless you also note that cursing ones parents and adultery are cause to be put to death. Obviously we aren’t punishing these things so severely either.”
Obviously. That does not make that passage a red herring, however. It just goes to show how fundamentally flawed the moral teachings of the Bible are. Sure, there are good things to be found. Many were mentioned previously in other cultures, some without religious overtones. One can affirm the dignity and worth of all human beings, based on the ability to determine right from wrong by appeal to universal human qualities, such as rationalism, without the need for all this dogmatic garbage.
@Malachias
When I called it a red herring, I got two conversations intertwined. I thought you were trying to distract attention from whether the account of the civil code is accurate by trying to stir up a discussion about whether we should kill homosexuals. Read the rest of the post and you’ll see the explanation that it’s a civil code for the nation of Israel, not a blanket statement for all nations of all times.
Your actual point was whether the Bible promotes violence against homosexuals, namely that it does. The more complete answer is that, for the nation of ancient Israel, it does, but for today’s society it most certainly does not. Anyone who says it does is not properly studying the text in its context.
Got it? Have at it, Israel!
As for the Global Warming Religion, new models have been proposed and do withstand the rigourous testing methodology. Though, several have been called heretical because the Global Warming by CO2 Religion Model is considered the only one, even though the numbers behind it and the assumptions have not been rigourously tested, mainly because they have not been published, and have been known to be revised for each run of the model, and additionally, data has been pruned to fit the assumptions.
No new models are allowed under the religious fervor. They are immediately subordinated to those of the “Consensus”.
So we will suffer the consequences of not knowing what the real parameters of Global Warming are. We will suffer the consequences of following the CO2-only model of Global Warming, especially if something else is really the driving factor.
The religious Global Warming by CO2-only Gospel is THE Gospel and must be taken literally and cannot be changed because it is the Gospel.
This is the same methodology as used by any religious group.
It is not a scientific methodology.
As stated above (by @hoverfrog) a scientific model must withstand the rigourous testing of assumptions, data, and hypotheses with regard to reality. A bayseian analysis of what factors really impact global warming, or even how much is really known compared to models and reality might show some surprising results. In fact, there are some doing just this and they are finding that too little is still known about Global Warming causes. Factors that are not in the CO2 model but are now deemed to be of higher importance include: water vapor (at least 2 orders of magnitude larger than CO2 in our atmosphere and not well understood), albedo (becoming better understood), solar output (much better understood as a factor – and which may be the real driving factor, it does correlate very well with global warming since 1820), methane (also larger than CO2 in the atmospheric mix and not yet as well understood), CO2 – not a factor in the global warming from 1820 to 1930 which has continued at the same rate since 1820 to current times.
Ollie said, “It is incumbent on the Atheist to prove there is no God… again where is the proof?” Nonsense. The burden is on the positive claimant, not the skeptic. While you are at it, disprove the existence of Ahura Mazda, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and the Celestial Teapot. Are you beginning to see how absurd your assertion is?
You also said “There are just too many coincidences in science to make us possible as the end result of evolution.” You obviously have done little or nothing to understand the matter, or you would not be spouting such ignorance. Go to the talk.origins archive and be enlightened.
How about outlawing the fruits of the poisonous tree, such as anything circular, wheels, knobs, pretty much anything with a circle.
a
I thought knobs already WERE against the rules. Wait.
FYI…A cubit was a unit of length based on one’s forearm. These measurements were for a specific persons arm length, not a specific unit of measure. A cubit was a way God used to explain to Hiram (the man that was charged with building this building) how to build it in a way that Hiram could understand.
2 Good definitions of a cubit (the unit of measurement):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/cubit
Also, since PI is concidered an infinite number, if you do the math correctly, you do not come out to a specific digit, but an infinite number. A cubit is an approximation. In mathmatics, when using PI, most mathmaticians, engineers, etc, use 3.0 or 3.14 as PI. Ratios, which is the math you’re doing, not volume which is where PI is needed, is not exact.
I’m sorry, but your logic is skewed. If you disagree with someone’s stance on the Bible, that’s fine. But to try and rewrite what the Bible says with flawed and incorrect logic is just sad.
Plus the book (1 Kings) you are referring to is concidered a historical document, not specifically a book of the Law. Therefore, your assumptions of it’s meaning are incorrect. It was a chronicle of the acts of the kings of the nation of Israel during Biblical time and shows how man cannot complete the Law (the first 5 books of the Old Testament, or the Pentatuch (Tora) ) that was set before him on his own. He had to depend on God to complete him. The Bible teaches us that God loves all and created us to be with him, not to lord over us but to love us as His children. I hope one day you understand that.
I wish religionists would just use some reason. It surely wasnt the theory of evolution that led Jim Bakker astray (he wouldn’t know the theory if it bit him . . .). It wasn’t evolution that led W. T. Grant astray, or Aimee Semple McPherson, or Robert Tilton, or Jimmy Swaggart.
If knowing evolution theory were evil, how can we explain that Darwin was such an outstanding man, a doting and caring father, a faithful and loving husband?
If you didn’t laugh through the entire post and most of the thread of comments, put the Bible down and back away slowly. Go rent a Marx Brothers movie, and get real.
@Malachias
You are correct that in matters of existential proof, there is no way to prove that something does not exist. You must prove it does. Until something is proven to exist, it is valid to believe it does not.
On the other hand, I think you’d agree that it doesn’t mean “stop looking”. It would be absurd to say that just because we haven’t found a cure for cancer, there must not be one. What in the name of science are all these doctors doing, still looking for something that clearly isn’t there, right? :p
I think Ollie was trying to speak to those who take the title of atheist and dogmatically force their beliefs on everyone else. However they have no proof of their own stance, and as you’ve pointed out, it is absurd to expect them to.
Skepticism (”there may not be a cure”) and dogmatic denial (”stop looking you idiots, there is clearly no cure!”) are very different plays.
@Roy Vestal
This is a repost, slightly edited for clarity, because David M. hasn’t been able to respond yet and I am curious to observe varying viewpoints:
Some would teach that the wages of sin are death, and that Jesus was sent that none should *perish* *but* have eternal life.
If without Jesus one would perish, and not have eternal life, then how would that one burn for all eternity? The dead feel no pain, so to speak.
Could it be that in sin, without the gift of Jesus, the sinner is obliterated and simply denied entrance to paradise? Some would teach this is the case.
It would make God more logical to me, that way. Here’s why. Even though I’m this wretched fallen human, I still wouldn’t want to see anyone suffer for all eternity. If someone came and mutilated my family, my sense for vengance might go so far as to desire that they be put to death as well. Maybe that far. But burn for all eternity? No, not even them.
Take that a step further. I certainly wouldn’t want to see my kid suffer for all eternity. Regardless of how many times he rebels against me. So why would God create a system where he’d have to watch his creation suffer for all eternity — as opposed to just wiping it out? Could the “lake of fire” be a disposal mechanism instead of an eternal prison?
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html
Quickly, the OT word for hell simply means place of the dead (good or bad). In the NT it’s similar and eventually gets destroyed with the return of Christ.
The concept of never ending punishment was, to my cynical mind, probably introduced for one of two reasons. Sell more indulgences or motivate conversion (upping the tithes) through fear. In either case, much of the church is not doing a good job following Christ, His teachings, or those of the Bible.
In the end, the choice isn’t to turn or burn. It is to repent or perish. To be more precise it’s not even a choice but a gift. Either you’re given the faith or you’re not and nothing you can do will change it. If you’ve been invited to the party, rejoice! If you haven’t, you’ll be destroyed.
You’ll probably wonder from that…if man can do nothing to change the guest list, why did Jesus command them to spread His word? Well you seem to like parental examples. Do you ask your son to take out the trash? You could do it full well, couldn’t you? You let him built character and responsibility, as well as give him purpose.
Hope this helps out. I know it’s a view that many of the church-goers will find totally ludicrous, but to them I say, paraphrased, “Follow sigh’s advice and do some studying for yourself”.
P.S. – Wait a minute? Did he just say cynical mind AND he seems to follow Christ? How can this possibly be?! Well, the cat’s out I guess — yes it is possible to be a Christian who questions his pastor. Even questions the Bible! Like sigh said, Job did it, why can’t I? There’s a lot about the world of Christ that many do not understand, due to misrepresentation by those who claim His name. I’m not judging them, that’s His job, and heck I could be wrong! But what I am saying is please don’t believe the stereotypes. Now I get to enjoy being flamed by BOTH SIDES!
A big amen to hib.
I love being a Christian. I hate it when people assume I believe X.
To the Gospel of Reason may I thank you for suggesting that the bible be taught within English lit classes. It’s incredibly sad to re-read a classic novel filled with footnotes explaining what is meant by every little biblical reference.
Terri
@hib
I think that anyone who flames you will be doing it out of their own discomfort.
Other than that, wow / thanks / speechless.
Sigh, the cancer analogy above is flawed I’m afraid. We look for a cure for an illness we don’t decide that the cure is X and then try to prove it even if it repeatedly fails to work…..actually that isn’t fair because I’m sure medicine used to work just like that.
The whole argument for an afterlife always struck me as strange. I mean before I existed I wasn’t in eternal suffering or paradise. Why should it be any different when I cease to exist?
@hoverfrog
Sorry but I disagree with your defense. Your dismissal of my analogy relies on me comparing one particular and supposed cure for cancer to one particular and supposed god or God. Clearly that’s not what I said. I said a cure, some cure. Just because what has been presented to you so far hasn’t worked, why have you stopped looking?
@hoverfrog
As for the afterlife, it makes sense to me.
No one that I’ve read so far has said that a soul is pre-eternal so that doesn’t work. Even if it was, I’m sure you don’t recall your first weeks of life or your time in the womb, so who’s to say you’d remember eternity past.
As for post-eternal, hib’s view (which seems a much more logical interpretation of the texts than what the fundies spew forth) doesn’t show eternal suffering as an option.
I didn’t do a good job explaining myself on that post about the afterlife. I know what I meant, but re-reading it, it didn’t come out. Disregard it until I can get it better communicated — sorry
Attempt 2:
Your point if I understand it correctly is “if we have a beginning, we must have an end.” If we are not eternal toward the past, we must not be eternal toward the future.
But consider the term indestructible. If there comes into being an indestructible object, then from the point it is created, it will never in the future cease to be. Does that mean that it always existed in the past? I don’t think so.
I don’t know if you read hib’s view, but in that view, we *are* destructible, and in fact those remaining unreconciled to God will be destroyed, not thrown to eternal suffering. Those crying “fire and brimstone!” are mistaken.
I’m calling it a day but please reference “sigh” in any response or comment to me and I’ll check back tomorrow.
Not that this thread is so busy anymore as to need the search function, but just in case.
[...] ein Special für …? Tja, für wen eigentlich? Den Kategorien nach für alle die mit rationality, bible, [...]
I’m trying to figure out if this post is actually “for real” or if it is merely a satirical argument.
I understand that you might be concerned about people teaching “fairy tales” in school, but I think that is the least of your concerns. Public education is diminishing in its effectiveness in preparing kids to become responsible adults; and, although I cannot draw a direct correlation between that and the fact that the Bible is slowly being extracted from public education, there is a noticeable drop in most public schools in any kind of positive character development. Like it or not, teaching about God and the Bible at least provides young people with a motive to be moral people.
The teaching of Scripture has no negative consequences except for the violation of non-believers personal preferences. And, to that degree, we could argue about any number of things– I could get teachers fired who like the New York Yankees, just because I don’t like them.
Also, if people treated one another in a Christ-like manner, this whole conversation would be pointless. Who would hate someone who loved him back? Who would hate someone who served him?
In that, I would rather be a part of the solution, rather than the polarization of “sides.” So…if you would like to discuss your questions further, I am more than willing to continue to converse in a respectful manner.
As far as “refuting” your pi argument goes…there is sufficient evidence in other people’s responses for you to recalibrate your judgments about that particular argument. I think, deep down, you know that that particular argument was going to get a rise but not yield any results. Congratulations, you’ve gotten people to check out your post and gotten some interesting dialogue, but you are really banking on exact measurements from a society that dealt with measurements in approximations. Pi is still safe. Also, why on earth would God have to include the length of pi in the Bible? It’s not like He also gives advice about other “fundamental” things: don’t eat yellow show, don’t pet skunks, and back massages don’t always mean that your wife with want to have sex with you. The exclusion or omission of these details (along with the precise definition of pi) don’t diminish God’s omnipotence.
[...] sin embargo la biblia y dios nos da otra mirada acerca del numero, y esto es lo que propone gospelofreason, un blog didicado a la biblia, sin [...]
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit « Gospel of Reason [...]
strewth
Supermannino said “The teaching of Scripture has no negative consequences except for the violation of non-believers personal preferences.” You mean other than creating phobias of Hell in children, encouraging homophobic bigotry, and encouraging credulousness?
You also said “Like it or not, teaching about God and the Bible at least provides young people with a motive to be moral people.” So does teaching secular humanism, and it does not carry with it any dogmatic garbage.
Sigh, your cancer analogy makes no sense. There is evidence that cancer can be stopped, and in some cases cured. The same goes for most diseases and disorders. There is not that same evidence to support the existence of any deity. Evidence is what matters. In fact, I agree with you strongly that we should never “stop looking” when it comes to understanding the universe. The problem with religion is that it encourages just that. Religion claims to already have those answers, so why bother looking?
Sigh, you said “Your actual point was whether the Bible promotes violence against homosexuals, namely that it does. The more complete answer is that, for the nation of ancient Israel, it does, but for today’s society it most certainly does not.” The fact that the Abrahamic god did so in his mythologies is ample reason to rule him out as a role model for morality.
how did you expect them to know the exact number for pi. They didn’t have calculators, why would God give them a never ending sequence of numbers?
This has GOT to be a sick and twisted joke.
to much talking i think im ginna faint pant pant pant
[...] Bible on Pi Filed under: pedantry, pointlessness — Brian @ 7:36 pm I found this post today in the WordPress Dashboard, making what at first almost appears to be a Good Argument that [...]
Did the ancients have decimals? If not, why would they use them. I think 3 is pretty damned good estimation for pi.
I think Pheonician’s post was brilliant.
But, at the end of the day, the original essay was great! I like the stickers! And it’s true, crewationists are wee bit off the head and should never be in charge of educating ANYONE-including their own kids.
# 1 Kings 7:2 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
amazing!!! thanks for sharing, are we brothers by any chance?
What a pathetic post of self indulgent bullshit.
Malachius Invictus, excellent job in taking some verses completely out of their context to strengthen you argument. I salute you. *clap clap clap*
———–
“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” (Leviticus 26:29)
IN CONTEXT: 23 ” ‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied. 27 ” ‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled.
This historically happened when the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Romans destroyed Jerusalem and refugeed the Jews.
“…their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)
IN CONTEXT:
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”
It is a good and commendable tactic not to show the verses in context, because if you did readers would realize that these are not God’s commands to the people, but rather a statement of what will happen if the people keep giving the finger to God. God will give the finger back at them, and God’s finger just happens to be much, much bigger.
———–
“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)
56 to 62 million “unnatural deaths” for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin. (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin on the crowning achievements of atheism)
“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” (Numbers 31:17-18)
“According to the American Medical Association, this procedure has four main elements. First, the cervix is dilated. Second, the fetus is positioned for a footling breech. Third, the fetus is extracted except for the head. Fourth, BRAIN OF THE FETUS IS EVACUATED so that a DEAD but otherwise intact fetus is delivered via the vagina.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_birth_abortion#Intact_D.26X_surgery on partial birth abortion)
Let’s hear it for the moral superiority of atheistic liberal humanism! When there is no God existing to tell us what to do, we can be our own gods and do whatever we think is best! Yay!
To sigh and hib, here is a much more public-friendly definition and inetrpretation of hell. You really do need to do more studying on a topic before you make an ass of u and me (ASS U ME).
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/07/hell-if-i-know/
Summarized: Fire and burning is often used as a metaphor for judgement in the Bible. Hell may not literally be a place of real fire.
But it will be a place of suffering and torment – if God and His heaven really are real and full of goodness and all sorts of nice and happy things, it would be torment not to be with Him!
So why not be with Him? Because, having rejected God’s laws (such as no homosexual acts, free sex, animal kinky sex etc.) for a lifetime and absolutely hating the idea of a Creator you are morally responsible to… You would likely hate to spend an eternity with that snobbish, self-righteous fellow… Who doesn’t exist, btw!
For an atheist, spending eternity in the presence of God would be worse than eternal barbequeing of his tender regions. Agreed?
The Bible is an ancient scripture, that spouted a lot of believers that stood by the fact that we have the follow all the words in it.
However, isn’t it true that the Quo’ran is also an ancient scripture? Then why don’t we follow all of the words in it also?
Granted, Christianity/Catholicism is larger than Islam, so the Bible dominates the Quo’ran, because the Catholic church beat the Islamic doctrine in the crusades.
What I’m pointing out is this: if only the Muslims won the crusades and dominated the world, then we’d all think the Bible is all false and we’ll praise the Quo’ran to high heavens.
Unlike today, when we believe the Quo’ran’s declarations of jihad and they’re abuse of women to be full of shit.
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit [...]
[...] Leidsin siit: God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit. [...]
Couple of points:
1:We know that the Egyptians uses standardized cubits–taken from either the High Priest or Chief Engineer of a project, apparently. This is such a good idea that I’m sure everyone did it.
2:That’s a /nasty/ shape to make–not the circle, that part’s easy, just tie a rope to a stake, measure off 10 cubits, hold everything at right angles, walk the circle. But the basin, which hold a /lot/ of water–remember, by definition, a cubic meter of water ways about a metric ton (should be exact, but the guys in charge futzed it up a bit….)–that’s a /huge/ weight those bulls have to support, and much of it is cantalevered, suspended without direct support. That he succeeded sais that ol’ Hiram was pretty good at his job, he should have been able to measure the distance at 31 cubits and one or two spans, the level of precision seen in other Biblical references–See the description of Goliath, for instance.
3:I have been seriously told that, /specifically/ the Word of God is inerrant and infallible, in the language that God wrote it in–otherwise known as the Authorized version, or The King James–even though you can point to several (apparently deliberate) mistranslations. For instance, the Hebrew commandment is, as best my poor brain can work it, “Thou shalt not murder”–with the word having the older English meaning of committing any unapproved killing of a human. If you aren’t one of these people, you aren’t the target of this barb! If you are–you can’t cherry-pick. My position is that anything even slightly touched by man is befouled, and errant.
4:The only Book of the Book written in Aramaic is Jeramiah, which doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion; /Hebrew/ is the language in question.
5:Virtually every Christian church I know of to the contrary, the epistles generally, and those of Paul in particular, aren’t Gospel. Excepting when one relates a message from the One, I give them no standing as Revelation. (Interestingly, Revelation is in that minority group.) Note that generally, they make no claim to such…
6:On a sde note, Onan’s sin wasn’t that he /spilt his seed/, per se, but that he did it to avoid getting his late older bro’s wife preggers, with the kid being credited to onii-chan. BTW, most of the other day-to-day rules make sense, if you’re a nomadic people trying to survive in the Negev….
pgf
____
Yeah, I knowe Ai kan’t spel, or kount
geekcritic – Partly due to the many decades of ‘higher criticism’ of the Bible, centuries of general criticisms and accusations, and more recent stuff like The Da Vinci Code, the Bible has been nonstop researched, attacked and defended.
From all of this research, the Biblical texts are considered at least accurate stretching back close to the original texts. Historical events described in the Bible have also been verified, such as Solomon’s collonade (John
and the walls of old Jericho having fallen flat enough to walk on.
Jesus’ existence is recorded by several nonChristian historians. Tacitus seems to me particularly poignant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Greco-Roman_sources
On the other hand, anyone found trying to debate the historicity, accuracy and date of writing of Muslim holy texts is usually immediately fatwa’d for death.
Secular scholars have nonetheless decided that the Hadith, at least, was compiled in written form only around 100 years or more after Muhammad’s death. This is as opposed to the Gospels’ gap of perhaps only a few years (see links below), and is important because the longer the time span between the event and its recording, the more legendary material tends to be included.
You can see this in that the earlier Quran has very little in the way of strange reports (Iskandar Zulkarnain chasing the Sun to the pool of water where it submerges at sunset is one example); whereas the later Hadith is chock full of things like Suleiman literally conversing with ants, Adam having been 80 feet tall and Muhammad saying that a couple’s baby will look like whoever orgasmed first.
Note that this is just my view of it; Muslim apologists have given defenses and explanations, such as Adam being 80 feet tall only in the Garden of Eden.
On the Crusades, technically the Church LOST them… The Holy Land came under Muslim control until the British and the Israelis took over again.
You might instead rather quote the Muslim Umayyad conquests of Spain and parts of France. If the Reconquista had failed, Columbus probably wouldn’t have sailed west to look for ‘India’, and America would be under the Native American rule today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
Anyway, it’s only us infidels who think that jihad sucks. After all, WE are the nonbelievers who will be slayed. I think it’s a pretty sweet deal for whoever DOES the slaying, conquering and pillaging.
The following is a list of my posts partly describing the textual accuracy of the Old and New Testaments.
The modern book of Isaiah has almost 100% exactly the same contents as the copy found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is dated as far back as 100-300 BC (by secular researchers):
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/08/16/isaiah-in-the-dead-sea-scrolls/
A brief logical argument counting backward from the book of Acts to determine when the Gospels were written:
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/24/when-were-the-gospels-written-internal-evidence-from-acts/
Refutations of the (Muslim) claim that the Bible was changed (to remove all references to Muhammad from it):
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/25/was-the-bible-changed-reasons-why-it-could-not-have-been/
A description of Jesus’ role appearing (amazingly) in the OT Hebrew names from Adam to Noah:
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/hidden-revelation-in-the-genealogy-from-adam-to-noah/
More ‘coincidence’ between Jesus’ life and Old Testament passages (incidentally from the book of Isaiah, which as I mentioned is dated back way before Jesus’ lifetime):
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/christ-as-god-in-the-old-testament/
Quite cool this one… The Old Testament Israelites unwittingly display a cross:
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/10/a-cross-to-the-promised-land/
PS. Also… Due to the huge number of OT and N documents – whether medieval, ancient or very ancient – there is ample material to do cross-checking with.
That is why versions of the Bible like the New International Version (NIV) has footnotes saying things like: ‘The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_Adulter%C3%A6#Textual_history
The exitence of variants is not denied; rather, the authenticity of each is carefully weighed, and the differences taken into account. All together, this allows for more accurate and faithful-to-the-original modern compilations of the Bible to be made.
Whereas, according to the Hadith itself, Caliph Uthman destroyed all the variants of the Quran that he did not deem to include in his official version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#First_standardization
Therefore, no cross-checking for accuracy or typographical/recording errors can be made for the Quran.
And the reference for the baby looking like whoever comes first – Hadith Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 7. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.007
Oh, Don’t forget, the mustard seeds are the smallest seeds ever (according to biologist Jesus) !
Smallest of all seeds and biggest of all trees within the socio-cultural context of the Jews back then… Would Jesus have made much sense if He talked about epiphytic orchid seeds and giant redwood sequoias?
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/mustard.htm
Notice that there are no guidelines for whether eating armadillos is kosher, since it would be pointless as no ancient Jew would ever come across one. Nor is rice even mentioned in the Bible, not really thriving without constant rainfall as it were. The Jews grew wheat instead.
Jesus also said that He would draw all men to Him… But from your response, that obviously doesn’t literally mean 100% of adult male humans and 0% of females and immatures.
So the Biblical critics are suddenly Biblical literalists now?
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I have heard something about the Persian bible? Written long before AD and containing stories such as king solomon, midas etc. Any idea where I can find a copy of that? I searched high and low, but in the wrong places.
Now, this whole discussion above is interesting, but I think many people are completely missing the point.
We should by now all know that the bible isnt 100% accurate and that is just fine. It doesn’t have to be perfect.
However, we should ask ourselves ‘who are we to dictate others how to live their lives?’
Who are we to force our believes of wrong and right upon others? Who are we to judge?
We aren’t GOD!!
Thus why should the bible be taught in schools as the truth and the only truth? That equals forcing a religion upon other, telling them how to live their lives. Telling us what is wrong and right.
Our laws are telling us how to behave to protect us from harm, I can accept that. Our laws are funny enough based on the 11 commandments of Christianity which in turn are based on the simple common sense of ‘living as a good person’.
But the problem with the bible is simple. The bible itself may not really dictate anything bad, it is the people that interpret the bible that make up silly rules.
I am curious (as I don’t know) but is there anywhere in the bible that literally says: ‘homosexuality is forbidden and a sin?’ / ‘Abortion is a sin’ / ‘having sex before marriage is a sin’. Or do when interpret these things from what we read?
Did Jesus himself ever said such things?
Or even worse, did Jesus ever say: Go burn millions of people if you think they are witches?
Did he ever say: Go and kill in the name of my God?
Leaving the question beside, the Roman Catholic church has a great history of killing in the name of god and sin.
Closing this:
I believe the bible to be a great book with many great lessons we should learn from.
I also believe that many people try to read more into this book then Jesus ever intended to teach us.
Lastly I believe that there is a great group of people that use the bible as a way to power by interpreting it in a way it was never meant to. These last people are in my opinion the greatest sinners.
Live by the word of Jesus, no doubt he existed and was a great and wise man. Don’t blindly follow the herd! He would have never wanted you to!
Pi != 3
to put it another way
3 != pi.
but nice post
Sigh, your original post “It would be absurd to say that just because we haven’t found a cure for cancer, there must not be one. What in the name of science are all these doctors doing, still looking for something that clearly isn’t there, right? ” is flawed because you have evidence of a disease in cancer and we have cured other diseases so we know that it is possible to cure a disease and it should be possible to find a cure for cancer. If we had found that Thor, for instance, existed then it would be plausible to assume that Yahweh also existed and to continue to look for him.
When I say nice, I mean funny.
Is is supposed to be serious? or funny?
I can’t figure that out.
It certainly is funny.
[...] Strong Are Your Beliefs! There is a blog out there which is rewriting fundamental mathematics. All in the interests of Biblical fundamentalism [...]
Scott Thong, you said “IN CONTEXT:
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.
It is a good and commendable tactic not to show the verses in context, because if you did readers would realize that these are not God’s commands to the people, but rather a statement of what will happen if the people keep giving the finger to God. God will give the finger back at them, and God’s finger just happens to be much, much bigger.”
Kindly explain how context makes it okay to murder innocent children and rip open pregnant women’s bellies. According to your comment, if people “give the finger to God,” he will cause horrific things to happen to them (just like a tyrannical dictator). He is a loving god, though, right? You people are so wrapped up in your delusion that you truly cannot see how utterly reprehensible this is.
The bible is wrong, this is obvious from the fact it claims to be the word of God but is written by man. Man will inevitable put a certain degree of interpretation and a number of errors within the book.
Quote
Monkey – June 13th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Just why would you expect the bible to say 31.4 cubits? It’s an approximation. If anything it proves at least one thing: the writer had some mathematical knowledge that goes beyond the time period.
Its an approximation … So from that I deduce God dose not know the size of his own planet OR the bible is wrong because as you stated the writer (who isn’t God, other wise it would be mathematically right) wrote the bible and thus it is not the complete word of God.
Math is THE ONLY pure subject which is the fundamental tool to everything in the universe. If the bible cant get Pi (math) right when it is suppose to contain the exact word God, the creator of the universe then it is clearly wrong, IMO.
@Malachias and hoverfrog
You’re still missing it. I’m not saying the search for a cure is analogous to finding the God of the Bible. You’re merging two arguments (”God of the Bible?” and “Any God?”) into one.
I’ll accept that you believe the God of the Bible fails. I’ll accept that there is no evidence for him, and in fact, reason to believe the opposite if he wants to kill homosexuals.
But I can’t accept that if *that* God doesn’t work, *no God* could. What teachers did you have that taught you “if one disease can be cured, they all can”? We hope and search that things will be the same for cancer, but surely you can’t believe that it’s automatically true that there *is* a cure for everything.
As I’m not a biologist but rather a computer scientist, let me know if I missed the latest report. Was something found where all diseases, sickness, etc., have a common property called “Cureable” and you just have to pick the right lock? I know that question sounds sarcastic but I don’t intend it to be — please correct me if I’m missing something and perhaps we can form another analogy. Or we can just accept that I’m sure you see the point I’m trying to make with the analogy, even if my medical background failed me.
So moving on, you say that since we have seen *a* cure work, there’s reason to hope, reason to assume, reason to try for another. That much is logical. What we must also realize is that there had to be a first time, and I wonder if people said “We’ve never been able to heal that or anything like it before. Why do you keep trying!?” I think it would be a grave error to assume the impossibility of any success based on the prior failure of specific trials.
As for second argument, “God of the Bible?”, I am currently at a point that I believe the God of the Bible *as promoted by today’s vocal population* fails. However, once we realize that our understandings are incorrect based on x number of years of faulty tradition, it becomes necessary from an investigative standpoint to launch a complete and objective review. It’s the same as if a detail of an experiment was found to have gone awry: if the inputs change then so might the results. Even if there’s only a 1% chance that the result will be different, it has to be tested.
@Scott Thong
If you read *all* my posts you’d see that I’m on neither side of this argument and trying to get true understandings of others’ views. I realized that I have not studied either “side” myself, but rather have only observed what others report about their beliefs, and taken those reports as, pardon the term, gospel. That said, I am looking for answers rather than trying to prove / regurgitate ones that I already have. I appreciate your input and will be reading it thoroughly later today.
The Bible is basically a love letter to you from God. Pick at the letter if you’d like but still the basic point if God loves you. So my response is to say to God, Gee thanks and then commence listening to the rest of what He has to say to me. As a result my whole life has changed. That is why I believe in a literal application. Which for someone who has not tried it is as difficult to understand as it is for anyone who has not and will taste a strawberry to understand how wonderful that fruit tastes.
I’d recommend you read some C.S. Lewis. He was an atheist and writes eloquently on the scriptures.
@Malachias
Your response to Scott Thong and the context thing…I am inclined to believe you still didn’t read carefully. The passage basically says that if they give God the finger, as Scott so delicately put it (good job Scott), their nation will be destroyed. It doesn’t say God will destroy it. It doesn’t have God telling anyone else to destroy it. It just says “You don’t want me? Fine, don’t have me, and see what happens without my protection.”
At least that’s what I get from the passage when read in the context of 13:9 above
13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
Hey Lord! What’s a “cubit”? — Bill Cosby. He made me laugh, too.
@Scott Thong
Did you read hib’s link? Yours is fine, don’t think I’m disrespecting you, but the article hib posted went along the same lines while diving deeper into the actual historical and scriptural implications. For example, you allude to Gehenna but the article hib posted actually explains it and how it relates.
It also goes a step further than your editorial and provides scripture stating that death will be thrown into destruction. The place apart from God, which you say is hell, seems to be the Sheol of the OT, a gloomy place of (all) dead. After which death will be destroyed and the faithful brought to God at the very end.
Sigh, “What teachers did you have that taught you “if one disease can be cured, they all can”? ” None that I recall but I did have teachers that helped me to realise that the limits of human achievement are those that we place on ourselves. Cancer may not be curable, I don’t know if it is. I suspect that a disease that can go into remission and that we combat with drugs can also be cured.
I’m saying that the same logic doesn’t apply to divinity. You don’t have little gods that can be seen or who’s effects are recordable. Why is there the likelyhood of a big god then? It just defies logic. However, I’ll run with it for a moment. Let’s give the existence of God a small probability and go and look for him/her/it. What are the properties of God that we can look for? What effect does God has on the universe?
Various people have described God as omnipotent and omniscient. Excellent, if He’s everywhere then he should be fairly easy to spot. Still can’t see Him though.
If you are looking for absolute proof of God’s existence or non-existence then you won’t find it. God is no more impossible than it is for me to spontaneously transform into a large strawberry (forgive me but I’m hungry). It is a possibility, you must admit. Just not very likely.
There’s a logical joke on the omnipotent and omniscient properties of God that I must share (again).
Can God get lost?
If God is omnipotent then he can do anything so must be able to get lost.
If God is omniscient then he knows everything and therefore cannot get lost.
@Sigh
(post was …sigh – June 14th, 2007 at 10:13 pm)
The Old Testament was originally in Hebrew, and most of the New Testament is in Greek. The scripture you are referring to is found in the Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 6, verse 23 “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Simply put, death is used here as a term for ” eternal seperation from God”, and it’s contrary “life” is used to describe “in the eternal presence of God”. The first book of the law, Genesis, teaches us that we were made to live (again “be in the eternal presence”) of God as His children.
I think about it this way. First I have 3 children and I love them dearly. I have friends that do not believe what I believe about God. I have collegues at work and neighbors that believe that there is no God. But we all love our children, doing anything we can to teach them what is right and wrong. We all do what we can to protect our children. This is a very tiny example of what the word “love” means, simply to make others more important than yourself.
This is what God did. Sin is simply rebelling against God and His rules. If we break one rule (sin), we have to leave the very presense of God. As you have pointed out, the wages of sin is death, first the dying of our physical bodies, and second an external separation from God in Spirit. So He sent Jesus Christ to pay the debt owed by sin. Because Jesus Christ was sinless (never sinned), and died in my place, my debt was paid for. We still have to suffer the consiquences of sin (the physical death) but we no longer have to be seperated from God eternally. I have to do 3 things in order to be put back into a right state with God (righteousness as it’s called in the Bible):
A – Admit that I have sinned. Simply admit I’ve rebelled and broken God’s rules
B – Believe, not just know, but believe that Jesus Christ is who He said He was and that he died in my place to pay for my sin
C – Confess (say out loud) that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
I’ve done this, so I know in my heart that I will be with Him when I die. This doesn’t mean I’m perfect. My family and friends will say that. It just means I’m forgiven for my sin.
This is what I am hoping anyone reading this will understand. They don’t have to be perfect to be forgiven.
As far as the “lake of fire”, God states in the book of Revelation, that at the end of time (not the end of the Earth but at the end of time), All will be judged, including those that have died. If someone has rejected God and His Son Jesus Christ, then they will suffer the “spiritual death” (the eternal seperation I mentioned earlier) and be thrown in to the lake of fire to be eternally punished for their disobedience along with Satan (or the Devil which ever name you want to use) and his minions.
Ref: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020;&version=31;
I would suggest reading Romans sometime. It answers a lot of the questions I’ve seen posted here re: why God did what He did.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%20;&version=31;
I would hope anyone with questions on why I believe what I do, would read this. It will help you understand.
@hoverfrog
Good, I think we are done then. All I am trying to say is that it’s still possible.
I do however have to say that omniscience and omnipotence are, well, not a very good argument. I get the joke, but clearly omnipotent means “has the power to do anything [that he/she/it chooses to do]“. From what I’ve read so far, the Bible would teach that God will choose to “forget” one’s sins. I don’t think it means that he know longer knows about them, violating omniscience. I think it means that, similar to how we “forgive and forget” amongst ourselves, the knowledge and pain of the offense remains, but it is treated as forgotten and no longer held against the offender.
Similarly, if your joke was an actual question, I’d say that from my readings so far, he could choose to forget where he was and how to get back. In other words, he can choose not to exercise his omni* attributes. For example, Jesus chose not to escape the desert or the cross, for the means of achieving a purpose.
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@hoverfrog
On second thought, we’re not actually done, I just don’t think we can go further. I wouldn’t search for ways to turn you into a strawberry because I don’t see how that would make anything any better. But if there was a God or gods, and we could him/her/it/them, whatever, I think it would bring incredible benefit.
I guess it depends on your level of doubt weighed against the perceived benefit.
^could know
@Roy Vestal
Thank you for your response, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your view.
@Roy Vestal
It says the devil, beast, and false prophet are thrown into a lake of burning sulfur to be tormented day and night.
It says those not found in the book of life are thrown into a lake of fire, which is the second death. No mention of being tormented day and night.
Am I over analyzing, or is there a subtle difference here? Is there a reason that these are assumed to be the same thing?
Sorry for posting 5 times but sometimes these things get over intellectual and some might say “pfft, burning sulfur IS FIRE!” I’m not saying you would, but since some would, I feel the need to clarify.
I know burning sulfur could produce a fire, but what I’m asking is why were different names / descriptions used. It would be logical, given the purpose of these texts, to be as clear and possible and leave no room for confusion. Ifthey were supposed to be the same thing, they should have used the same naming. Do the original untranslated texts use the same names?
two thousand baths is alot
Sigh, what benefits would there be in “knowing God”? Seriously. As opposed to living a life free from religion.
It is not necessary to abide by the rules laid out in any book. You can learn from experience that reciprocity is the best social rule.
The problem is we are in a world of masochists practicing reciprocity.
Learn to love yourselves and stop splitting hairs in religious texts.
@hoverfrog
Are you serious?
Besides, I didn’t say anything about following some set of religious rules. I said benefit from the ability to know God or gods, or at least, if not personally know them, know their nature and intentions.
You see “religion” and, validly, run far far away. So do I. That’s not what I’m after here.
Very serious Sigh. I don’t believe in Gods so the benefits are pretty alien to me. I’ve had religious friends tell me that their belief is wonderful and all encompassing which I don’t understand at all. I’d quite like someone to explain it to me.
I suppose it’s a feeling of validation that their illogical views are somehow supported. The illogic would grate at me and spoil and rapturous feelings but I suppose the human brain is perfectly capable of deluding itself.
If I claimed these feelings from a sincere belief in the power of the Flying Spaghetti Monster I’d rightly be viewed as a lunatic. Is religion then merely mass mental illness? A delusion taught to each generation? I think so but I’m not everyone so I wondered if someone could point out the benefits of faith. I mean the personal benefits not the societal or political ones. I am well aware of the power of religion to unite people to a common cause.
Scott Thong, you attempt to excuse reprehensible passages in the Christian Bible, and to malign “atheistic liberal humanism” by bringing up Stalin and an extremely rare abortion procedure.
Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality. Stalin was in no way a humanist. Stalinism, in fact, bears striking resemblances to religion. It was a personality cult, with a larger-than-life, infallible Stalin as the object of worship.
The humanist perspective on abortion is that it should be minimized. The most sensible and effective way to accomplish this is to increase birth control access and education. However, the same theists promoting the anti-choice “pro life” movement also work to restrict birth control access and education, which in turn leads to more abortions. This is nonsensical and utterly illogical.
You then said “Let’s hear it for the moral superiority of atheistic liberal humanism!”
In fact, humanism is morally superior in every way to revealed morality, and Christian doctrine in particular. There are overlaps, of course, because there are good, sensible, moral things that are part of Christian doctrine. However, no one need believe in mythological nonsense in order to follow these morals.
You then said “When there is no God existing to tell us what to do, we can be our own gods and do whatever we think is best! Yay!”
There is no god telling people what to do, and we should, as human beings, work out what we think is best. By using rationality and ethics to promote a balance between personal liberty and social responsibility, we can achieve great things.
@hoverfrog
I see your point, that it is alien to you how belief in an illogical construct can bring joy.
My point remains: what if there is actually one who does not defy logic. Explanations you’ve been exposed to so far do defy that logic, and therefore cannot bring you joy or benefit. The same is true for me, 2 + 2 MUST equal 4, every time, or I lose sleep over it.
But I think that as long as I can find evidence that the exposition is corrupt (i.e., that those doing the explaining haven’t even done a proper study of their own texts), it merits further investigation. Assuming that someone had never heard teachings of evolution: They shouldn’t dismiss the concept if their first lecture on it came from a someone who, not even understanding it himself, gave an illogical representation. They should go find out what the teachings truly are.
“If Jack and Jill get freaky on Saturday night, kill them” is obviously a major cause for pause. However, until I do a complete study of what that actually means in the context of the original text, culture, history, and all other factors, I can’t unilaterally dismiss it. As an admittedly crazy example, what if by having sex with a camel back then, you contracted a terrible and contagious disease. It was of such a nature that if you were not put to death, the entire camp would surely be eliminated by plague. In that case, the command is actually for the greater good: The offender is going to die anyway, and now the rest are spared. Again, an admittedly crazy example, but until I complete the study it’s the only one I’ve got, right? Maybe there is a true and valid reason, which is just not known to us because no one has taken the time to look. If no such reason is found to make the command valid for its time and cultural context, then we can move on.
As for the personal benefits of faith, first let me point out again that this would be different than the benefits of actually discovering God(s). However it is clear that faith can have a tremendous personal benefit for the truly faithful. We tell athletes “mind of matter”, and the faithful tell themselves the same thing. The power of a positive attitude has been documented even in science. Not “go to the tent, have someone put his hand on your head, faith heals!”, or anything as dramatic as that, but certainly one’s attitude can truly shape their life. The following link shows the life changing effect of an attitude shift. While it is not necessarily driven by faith, the cause of the attitude shift is irrelevant when trying to investigate the effects of an attitude shift.
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2007/06/13/the-power-of-yes-a-simple-way-to-get-more-out-of-life/
@Malachias
I agree that Scott made a really bad call, but I do hold to my prior post about Hosea 13:9 effecting the reading of Hosea 13:16, and I think it proves that until we stop looking at chunks that prove our case, ignoring the greater whole, we are no better than they.
On my link to the power of yes, it could be considered a conscious change of behavioral reaction rather than a change in attitude. I encourage you to research psychological studies that are more closely tied to attitude and attitude alone, but so far I have found no good link for you that isn’t a 24-page preview of a 80 page dissertation.
Sigh, you said “Your response to Scott Thong and the context thing…I am inclined to believe you still didn’t read carefully.” Actually, I have. I have read the entire chapter, in fact. You claim “It doesn’t say God will destroy it.” Yes, it does. Read 13:15, where “the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness…” etc.
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I’ve come to the conclusion that the Bible must be investigated in two distinct ways. First, for internal logic and consistency. Second, for external logic and consistency viewed against seemingly contradictory arguments (i.e., creation vs. evolution). The following is a search for internal consistency in regard to a common question, “How could a loving God command a death sentence?” It is no way should be taken as a view endorsed by anyone, nor even as something I’ve fully ringed out even in my own mind. It just kind of came to me in the shower. I’m open to thoughts from anyone.
It is said that we are created by God, and since this is an internal study we must accept that. We’ll deal with the external arguments that this can’t possibly be some other time, as again I haven’t studied nearly enough for either side of that particular argument.
Now, just as you have full rights to destroy pottery crafted by your own hand, so any creator has a right to terminate his creation. The human mind will object just as the pottery, if it had a voice, would object, stemming from the will to live. However, this does not negate the right.
It follows that God has the right to pass a death sentence on whoever He might choose, for looking at Him sideways if He so chose. Or in the pottery analogy, because you realized you just don’t like how the brim turned out.
However His patience and mercy outlasts his wrath in many cases, and the rules he gave never reached a point so ridiculous as walking backwards, arms crossed, with one foot always off the ground — we could have been given such instruction if he really wanted to have a laugh. Again this is a study toward internal consistency and so, “Well that’s just because man would never give himself such a rule” doesn’t apply (side note: what man would give himself such a rule as to prevent sleeping with his neighbor’s wife, just out of thin air? probably only a homosexual, but…hmm, then why? hmmmm. tongue in cheek but interesting)
So why do any of the rules exist? Several reasons, including the allowance for free will, whereby without any rules, we would have no choices. God, it seems, does not, as you might expect from watching his self-proclaimed followers, want mindless drones.
As to the death sentence for homosexuals, this isn’t even accurate. It’s a death sentence for anyone lying with another man, as with a woman, inside the bounds of the nation of Israel. You could go perform those acts elsewhere and suffer no consequence. If that was your chosen course of action, please just leave town. Ample allowance was given for homosexual activity without being put to death. Don’t pee on the sidewalk, don’t walk on my lawn, and take that stuff elsewhere.
But why forbid bestiality, homosexuality, and the cursing of one’s parents, among other things? Forbidding murder, stealing, etc. make sense — heck, even forbidding beastiality makes sense to me — but homosexuality? Teen angst?
Because God wanted His nation to be holy which means nothing more than set apart. Different. For others to look on them and notice they had something else, good or bad, and start discussion on what it was. He chose to protect that distinction and took it very seriously, to the point of the death sentence for those who violated the pact. Just as if someone broke into your home and attempted to destroy all you loved and had worked for.
Again, just some thoughts which I hope will spark more intelligent and respectful discussion. Thanks to everyone for the fun so far.
@Malachias
It does say the wind is from “the LORD”, and that it will cause the springs and wells to dry up. Full stop end of sentence. Then talk about plundering, killing, and destruction which is surely NOT being done by that wind. Again please read not fully, but carefully.
^now you know where you get my name bc I’m sighing at another typo:
Again please read not *only* fully, but carefully.
I have to say this but it’s hard to do without sounding like a jerk. Please take from it my meaning, and leave behind the tone.
For all the talk about reading comprehension, and the superior intellect of the atheist, etc., etc., I’m embarrassed that I had to point that out to you.
@hoverfrog
Another thing that came to me in regard to faith and the positive personal benefits thereof:
Two terminally ill patients. One believes a cure will be found, one doesn’t. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong as I don’t have time to verify right now, got to get to work) studies will show that the one who does believe will last longer as well as do better during that extended time.
Here the faith is in science, leading to hope for a cure, leading to an enduring will to hold out and live.
So whatever your faith is in, it doesn’t matter. To say “Science is good enough to find a cure for *me* in *my* lifetime” is a claim of faith. There is no evidence that science is *that* good, even if we assume that a cure will come “someday”.
Plenty of the terminally ill holding onto their faith in science still die without a cure. The faith still brought them positive results, despite the fact that they were proven wrong.
Interestingly, the progression from faith->hope->perseverance appears in the Bible. Not that it means anything for it to appear there, as I’m sure the phenomenon was observed among various people in ancient times just as well as it can be with the terminally ill today.
Sigh, you should be embarrassed for yourself, not me. It is clear from a reading of that passage that these guys pissed off Yahweh, and therefore he is putting the smack down on them. Hosea 13:15-16 is a continuous passage:
15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.
16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
It does not say “I am going to hit you with this wind, and then leave you to your own devices.” It is clearly a continuation of the punishment the tantrum-throwing tyrant deity is handing down over the fact that these people turned their back on him.
Also, is it morally right for the Abrahamic god to cause the children of this nation to die of painful dehydration because their parents choose not to worship him?
A question for Christians: if your god is omnipotent, why can’t he affect chariots of iron?
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Great pot stirrer! If nothing else, you’ve made people think. I can only find two “holes” in your arguments:
1. If it is crazy to say that Pi equals 3, would it be equally crazy to say it equals 3.1 or 3.14 or 3.141? Where do you draw the line?
2. Cubits weren’t very accurate measures. It is hard to argue anything based upon measurements that “sloppy”.
But good post. I look forward to reading more of your work.
@Malachias
Are you saying that the WIND is tearing women open? Or are you saying that magic laser beams are? Because to me, it sounds like something a conqueror’s sword would do (and historically did) if a country was left without proper defenses.
The only way to read it the way you are reading it is to have a preconceived notion that God is throwing a tantrum. From any other view, you get “God sends wind which dries the wells and springs. The town is plundered by something or someone.” All it says in regard to God’s actions “I dont have your back, and I’m taking your water”. If someone tells you that they don’t want your help, then why force it on them?
Hmm…Pi=3. Thought provoking.
@Malachias
Umm, because it wasn’t God driving them out, it was Judah, and just because God is with you doesn’t mean you get super powers? Again omnipotence doesn’t imply that you will always exercise it, and it certainly doesn’t imply that you will grant it to your followers.
Sigh, you said “Now, just as you have full rights to destroy pottery crafted by your own hand, so any creator has a right to terminate his creation. The human mind will object just as the pottery, if it had a voice, would object, stemming from the will to live. However, this does not negate the right.”
Nonsense. Reprehensible nonsense. Killing a sapient being is not in any way analogous to destroying an inanimate object. There are other flaws in your logic as well. Are you claiming that parents have the right to kill their children? They are, after all, the creators of those children. Additionally, there are many circumstances under which a potter would *not* have the right to destroy his creation. For example, if he were working for someone else, and was being compensated.
@Malachias
From the standpoint of an internal study, which is what it was, parents don’t create their children. Your point about creating for compensation and sale is valid until we realize that it’s not what God would be doing when creating a child. You know full well the difference there and your attempt to discredit it based on a counterexample that doesn’t apply is frustrating.
I am still open to intelligent and respectful discussion from anyone, even you, but to call it reprehensible nonsense because you violate the very premise under which it was written doesn’t qualify.
I should really get back to work.
Check back in 3 hours. Please don’t stir up too much before I get back
Sigh, even taking your ““I dont have your back, and I’m taking your water” argument, your “loving god” is consigning innocent children to death by dehydration. How do you justify that?
@Malachias
Are you saying that if you had a well and it went dry, you’d just stare at it until you died? I’d probably start packing.
I’m going to be fired. The curse of working on a freaking computer.
@Malachias
And WHOA! *MY* God?
You obviously haven’t been reading where I stand on this issue.
this is a joke, right? please tell me this is a joke.
[...] with controversy and disputes within the Christian community. I have seen some of the very best and very worst methods of handling controversy in the past few weeks. Bottom line – we are called to contend [...]
And before you ask, Hosea 13:7-8 is using poetic language to describe the fall of the nation of Israel as it was conquered and its people scattered throughout the conquering lands. Just as a coin purse, if ripped open, will scatter the coins about, so were the people of Israel not only here but in verified historical records.
why is cursing aload
This is stupid.
The history of pi has it that a more accurate calculation of pi (than ‘3′) was extant before this was even written (the Egyptians in the 1500 BCE’s had a 3.1something calculation, and there’s some research suggesting that some sub-Saharan cultures had similar calculations even earlier) – but a little common sense says that, for the most part, the approximation of 3 did enough for most people and most situations.
The Hebrews didn’t claim to invent pi, or even discover it… I’m not even sure why you’re writing about this.
Way to bait a Fundamentalist position that almost nobody even believes in…
Once again, this is stupid.
@Patrick
His point was that if a fundamentalist is going to take the Creation story as a literal account that trumps contrary findings, they’d have to also take this story as a literal account that trumps the actual value of pi. He follows that since they could not possibly, honestly, hold to a belief that Pi is exactly 3, then they have no grounds on which to continue holding to Creation.
However, the simplest counterargument is that since circular does not imply a perfect circle, there is no dilemma. While it would be ridiculous to believe that Pi is exactly 3, it is perfectly valid to believe that something circular could be 10 across while 30 around.
Cubit
Heb. ‘ammah; i.e., “mother of the arm,” the fore-arm, is a word derived from the Latin cubitus, the lower arm. It is difficult to determine the exact length of this measure, from the uncertainty whether it included the entire length from the elbow to the tip of the longest finger, or only from the elbow to the root of the hand at the wrist.
WOW
I will likely not be checking back over the weekend, so don’t think I’ve run off. If the thread gets cluttered please make anything you want me to see pretty easy to find. Thanks.
@ Malachius
If phobia truly means fear, then why would that be a bad thing in and of itself? Now, if you take phobia to mean irrational fear, well, then you are being quite irrational yourself. What is irrational about steering children away from eternal damnation? Oh, no, let’s hold them over the fire! At least they won’t be afraid. That’s like saying that you should tell your kids not to talk to strangers because you don’t want them to develop a phobia of strangers. Assinine reasoning.
“encouraging homophobic bigotry”
Again, your definition betrays you. I laughed at the definition of bigotry from dictionary.com. It’s painted with such a wide brush that it’s pretty silly. To not subbornly not accept someone else’s beliefs is not necessarily a bad thing. Am I a bigot towards pedifiles because I don’t agree that children should be molested? Am I a bigot towards serial killers because I don’t believe that people should be killed for sport? By that definition, I (and probably you) are bigots. The problem is that you don’t believe that there is an absolute truth and I do. I am trying to steer people (and, yes, children) towards life. You are just trying to do your own thing.
You must like that “phobia” word, since we’re also homo”phobic.” Do you really think it is because Christ-followers are “afraid” of homosexuals that we believe the homosexual lifestyle is a sin? OK, lean in close, I’ll whisper the truth in your ear. it’s not.
The reason that we believe that it is a sin is because it has been called such by God. I am not afraid of homosexuals and the Bible only tells people to fear sin. The Bible creates no phobias, only reasons to avoid sin. By calling someone “homophobic” you are implying weakness (or fear). This is simply not the case. I can speak for people who judge and sling stones, but I can definitely say that I must overcome my fear of homosexuals’ bigotry towards my Christian beliefs in order to share the Truth with them that would set them free. Sounds like you’re a bigot towards my beliefs too. What we have here is a case of discursive entrenchment.
“encouraging credulousness”
Again, I do want my children to believe things that are right easily. I love you. I want to help you. I want you to experience life. Yes, a person in authority can promote “crudulousness,” but I would definitely say that I have my work cut out for me trying to deprogram the godless thinking that occurs in most public school environments.
Secular humanism does not promote morality. There is no morality apart from a person realizing what they are created for. (But I do appreciate the fact that you conceded that Christians are motivated to live a moral lifestyle…even by your minus-God definition).
The use of the word “dogma” is another interesting, boobie-trap. Of course someone who knows that they are right would be confidently espousing what he knows to be true. To spin it and call that arrogance is only if the listener believes that the person isn’t telling the truth. Well, what if the person is telling the truth! It’s not arrogance. It’s compassion. It’s a public service.
So…yet again…we create phobias in school for people who stand firm in their beliefs. We have plenty of arrogant dogma about how we MUST be open-minded and “tolerant.” Little by little, the very thing that you are arguing against is happening anyway. The difference is that you’re winning. You’d be complaining if you were on the other side. Oh…and since it’s just about you having things the way you like them (you’re not even being motivated by a higher calling)…yes…it’s about your personal preference!
Sigh, you said “From the standpoint of an internal study, which is what it was, parents don’t create their children.”
Sorry, but reality and all available evidence indicates that they *do*. Additionally, you *still* have the problem of sapience. A being does *not* have the right to arbitrarily destroy a sapient being, under any rational moral code.
Sigh, I made the comment that the Abrahamic god, by making Samaria “desolate” and removing all the water there, was consigning innocent children to death by dehydration. You responded with “Are you saying that if you had a well and it went dry, you’d just stare at it until you died? I’d probably start packing.” Obviously, you are not familiar with the region, which is dry and hot, and not a place you could travel through without water. Children would certainly die. You are also ignoring the fact that, were these people to try to go elsewhere, they would be met with the hostile inhabitants of the regions they entered. Thus, “they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”
The Abrahamic god has, though his actions, condemned innocent children to death.
To revisit your claim that the Abrahamic god was not trying to cause these violent deaths, how do you justify this stance in light of Hosea 13:8? “I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.”
Supermannino, you said “Now, if you take phobia to mean irrational fear, well, then you are being quite irrational yourself.”
Explain exactly how I am being irrational.
Supermannino: “What is irrational about steering children away from eternal damnation?”
That is simple: there is no credible evidence of this “eternal damnation” whatsoever. Believing in things for which there is no credible evidence is irrational. Abusing children by inflicting needless fear upon them is reprehensible.
Supermannino, your interpretation of the definition of bigotry is pure idiocy. Bigotry is the stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own. Your examples of pedophiles and serial killers are nothing but straw men.
Supermannino: “I am trying to steer people (and, yes, children) towards life. You are just trying to do your own thing.”
We are both just trying to do our own thing. However, your “thing” includes the abuse of children via religious fearmongering and indoctrination. Mine does not. The “life” you are trying to steer people towards is full of fear and delusion.
A clue for you, by the way: “phobia” can mean “irrational antipathy” as well as “irrational fear.” Incidentally, do you treat people who work on Sunday the same way you treat homosexuals? You are supposed to put them both to death, by the way.
Secular humanism does indeed promote morality. Do you claim that affirming the worth and dignity of all people is not moral? Of course, the definition you offer for “morality” is a perversion, so you probably do.
Supermannino: “I do appreciate the fact that you conceded that Christians are motivated to live a moral lifestyle…even by your minus-God definition”
I never said such. I said “there are good, sensible, moral things that are part of Christian doctrine.” Christians may or may not be motivated to live a moral lifestyle; there are plenty of examples of the opposite.
You are right that “we” (that is, rational people) are winning. It appears that open communication and exposure to a wide variety of belief systems proves to be a pretty effective innoculation to the mind virus that is theism. Unfortunately, many young children are infected before they have a chance, and either succumb, or have a long fight ahead of them.
1. God is omniscient.
2. God is omnipotent.
3. God wants everyone to believe in him.
4. Since God is omniscient, he knows exactly what demonstration would convince any given person that he exists.
5. Since God is omnipotent, he is capable of performing this demonstration.
6. Since God wants everyone to believe in him, he wants to perform this demonstration.
7. However, atheists manifestly exist.
8. Therefore, the god described by the first three conditions does not exist.