God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit
Ed note: Given the amount of number pseudo-crunching I’ve seen apologists perform, I would like to reference the readers to the following explanation. You may or may not agree but it’s just as much a tug of war as using the ‘inner circumference’ argument.Ed ed note: Some people woefully take this article personally. Allow me to elucidate for those who have not managed to interpret my word correctly (ha). I am not bashing the Bible. I am not bashing Christianity as a whole. I am trying a reductio ad absurdum of the Creationist stance of Biblical Infallibility. That one can interpret the Bible in one way or another is beside the point.Ed ed ed note: The Bible is a fantastic source of literary entertainment and a strong case can be made for secular biblical literacy lessons in schools as a complement to English Literature lessons since a lot of English Literature owes its heritage to biblical influence.
In other words, it’s a great piece of fiction. Some people misguidedly choose to base their life on the assumption that it’s absolutely true. Other people pick and choose from pieces which are actually moral (or in some cases, not all that moral - the Catholic Church’s stance on sex and homosexuality is an example of misguided morals), and dismiss the obviously inane as mythology.
That’s great. But there’s a point when I take great offense in the book which is when it’s forced down my throat. I choose to read the Bible like I read Greek mythology. That certain lobbyists try to hijack the education system by infiltrating the Bible in, not as a source of literary study, but as a source of ‘moral and scientific’ rectitude (whatever that means) is what provokes me into pointing out clear (or not so clear) discrepancies in the whole biblical infallibility thing.
I Kings 7:23-26
He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it - ten to a cubit. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea. The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths. (NIV)
The Bible is the word of God, yes? Anyone who claims otherwise is a heretic bastard.
Well look at this grave, grave offense to your beliefs.
Pi. π. 
The value for pi used in calculators is 3.141592654. But if we look at the word of God, it states that the ratio of the circumference to the diameter is 30:10 cubits. In other words:
3
Also known as 3.00 or 3.0. But here we have these self important mathematicians who believe they can improve on the word of God! What an effrontery. Biblical literalists, you are faced, as when with evolution, with an important dilemma if you wish to continue your peace of mind.
You can either accept that the word of God is fallible and men have improved upon it, therefore casting into doubt your claims of Creation.
Or you could hold steadfast to your God-given beliefs. Stand by in the face of scientific persecution and shout loud to the heavens that PI, goddammit, is equal to 3.0 because God said so.
Chances are if you’re not a hypocritical believer that you’ll take the second road. I’ve anticipated this, and I’ve made a partial list of all the things which you are going to have to forbid teaching in schools and universities if you want to preserve moral rectitude:
- Trigonometry
- Radians
- Complex numbers
- Circular motion
- Physics
- Electrostatic force
- Isotropic transmission
- …
I invite the readers to contribute to this list in order to make sure no further offenses to God’s word take place.
Interesting dilemma for biblical literalists: Either recant and accept the Bible is just a cute collection of bloodthirsty stories (Genesis included) or stand strong in face of the whole world of science and maintain that Pi = 3. Teach it in schools.
You can stop me here, now. You can say that “Ah, but if you look at the volume measurements and cook some of the values here and there you end up with Pi = 3.14, which is the modern version! QED, bitch!”. That the Bible doesn’t state that the value of Pi has no end is a testament to the fact that it was written by Middle East settlers in the BRONZE AGE. Clearly nobody expects the people who wrote the Bible to put down all of the digits of Pi - the book would be a greater pain in the ass than it is now if only out of sheer size. But a simple disclaimer, a simple Pi 3:23 “Oh yeah, but it has no end” or Numbers 1:1 “And God told Moses: ‘Pi, it hath no end’” or even I Kings 3:27 “And God rudely interjected: ‘Sorry guys, I forgot to mention, Pi is irrational’” would have done.
These stickers are for the public to use freely and paste over math textbooks the world over. Have fun!
EDIT: MY BAD PEOPLE, the previous stickers had the misleading approximation of 20/7 (which is an approximation to not very much, I’m afraid). I’ve corrected it. Carry on spreading the true value of Pi!
I love this, I’ve been on this bandwagon for ages now.
PI IS EQUAL TO EXACTLY 3.
Check out this coincidence, folks.
Apparently the variant spelling of the Hebrew word for “circumference” found in the I Kings text has a numerical value (”gematria”
of 111 versus the value of 106 for the usual spelling. So, factoring in this internally implied correction: 30 cubits x 111/106 = … well, you do the math….
There’s a piece at http://www.khouse.org/articles/1998/158/ with some details. There’s also an interesting thing on pi and e at http://www.khouse.org/articles/2003/482/
[...] Umfang = Durchmesser * Pi Ein Durchmesser von 10 Ellen bei einem Umfang von 30 Ellen ergibt: 30 = 10 * Pi -> Pi = 3.0 Hier gefunden. [...]
You could send this to the Blogs4Brownback guy (who wrote that heliocentrism is an atheist doctrine, because the Bible says the Earth doesn’t move).
Pi? Now I’m starving.
Well…. if it’s 30 cubits around, and 10 cubits across, then that *is* a ratio of pi… to one significant digit.
Just sayin’.
The better approximation is 22/7, not 20/7 as can be read on that note in the image. 20/7 is actually even less than 3.
[...] June 13th, 2007 [link][more] [...]
Just why would you expect the bible to say 31.4 cubits? It’s an approximation. If anything it proves at least one thing: the writer had some mathematical knowledge that goes beyond the time period.
I’ve corrected the stickers, my bad for that.
Monkey, as I wrote, I would not have expected the Bible to write down all the digits of Pi. I leave that for Creationists to do in future editions of the Bible text.
At the very least, God could have been omniscient/omnipotent enough to write that Pi is infinite.
Has anybody taken into account the fact that it says that the rim was a handbreadth in thickness? This could alter the measurements - if the circumference were measured along the inside of the rim rather than the outside, then your ratio would be less than 3.14 and closer to 3. I’m just saying The text is not specific for us to know exactly how where from and where to measurements were taken.
Come on, let’s not be total idiots, I guarantee you these people could measure the things they built; either it was measured differently to how we are assuming they measured or an approximation was used.
As an aside, I really wish atheists would get a life. If there is no eternal significance to life, we are all going to be dead in 100 years and none of this will matter. Why do atheists spend so much time caring what other people (who I guess are just conglomerations of atoms at the end of the day) think?
The text is alright if you don’t interpret it to the last fullstop. Honestly? I wouldn’t have even posted this if there were not elements in American society who campaign for the teaching of fairy tales as science in schools.
As an aside, I really wish faith-heads would stop using atheists as the universal punching bag. Why do religious people spend so much time obsessing about other people’s sins?
Not to be a prick, but seriously, how does this pertain to a literal/figurative interpretation of the bible? Any dumbshit knows that a cubit is an approximate measurement to begin with. It would be redundant to say about 30 cubits, because 30 cubits *is* about 30 cubits.
The diameter of 10 cubits is from outer rim to outer rim, the way anyone would measure a circular object. The circumference of 30 cubits, however, was of the inner circle, after subtracting the thickness of the brass (two handbreadths—one for each side) from which the bowl was made. This would be the number needed to calculate the volume of water.
Check for yourself.
Substitute the length of your cubit (elbow to longest fingertip) for the letter C in the following formula, and solve for H.
30C / p + 2H = 10C
The width of your handbreadth will be the result. For example, my cubit is 20 inches long. If I had built the brass bowl, the outer diameter would have a circumference of 600 inches (30 x 20 inches) and a diameter of 190.986 inches (600 inches / 3.14159). The difference between the two diameters is 9.014 inches (two of my handbreadths).
Option #2
They may have measured the bowl’s circumference under the lip and the diameter including the lip, which added enough to make 10 cubits across.
We don’t care what you think — we care when you advocate a change in policy based on those thoughts.
[...] de bijbel is PI = 3 God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit Gospel of Reason Bijbel - Koran: 0- 1 [...]
Again, you can cook numbers nicely and 3.14 will come out every time. That the Bible did not mention, even _hint_ at the irrationality of Pi is a testament to the fact that it cannot have been written/inspired by God and is therefore fallible.
If you take the Bible as what it really is, a vestige of literary exploration and stories, then it doesn’t matter at all.
But when you take it literally, then not only are you sticking your neck out incredibly far, but you risk the whole world of science as we know it. Just for a couple of decimal places.
lol funny
Lou- well said. I don’t care what people believe or don’t believe as long as it doesn’t affect me personally. I don’t care if you believe in flying spaghetti monsters, but if you try to rewrite the constitution because you think the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t like abortion, the fact (not theory) of evolution or gay marriage, *that* is when I have a problem.
Nice blog.
Please don’t turn this into a false dichotomy of “atheism or pi = 3″ please.
@Monkey, who wrote “the writer had some mathematical knowledge that goes beyond the time period.”
A kid with a STRING could have measured the circumference, wth. How is measuring something with a string “beyond the time period”?! It even SAYS “[...] it took a line [...]”
You were trying to be funny, right?
Looks like someone has too much time on their hands.
The world as we know it isn’t going to collapse based on this information, and anyways, who said scientists were infallible?
I want to see “biblicycles” that have wheels with the same geometry as the bible indicates.
If the faithful ride the biblicycles, and the seats are pretty hard, Darwin will solve the problem in no time (and they don’t believe in Darwin so they won’t be worried).
Stephen & kjhand:
Scientists are not infallible, that’s the beauty of scientific exploration.
All I’m doing is trying to point out the incredible failures of Biblical Infallibility. There are countless Christian denominations with far more sense in them than Biblical Innerancy. It’s not ‘atheism or pi = 3′. It’s ‘Biblical innerancy is a crock of horse shit’.
God is unfathomable and transcendental. Universal Constants are Gods numbers. Why would they be finite?
I don’t know, which is why I Kings 7:23-26 puzzles me.
[...] 13Jun07 there is nothing left to say. the entry speaks for itself. Filed under: fun, religion [...]
[...] Anyone who claims otherwise is a heretic bastard. [...]
God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit
This story has been submitted to Stirrdup. If it can generate enough interest, it will make it to the main page.
If the bible WAS ‘improved upon by men’… why didn’t somebody fix this…
I’m just sayin’…
Pathetic. If this stupid argument is the best you can do, then your position is pretty weak. Especially since a cubit is ABOUT 18 inches, and it was a general description of something, not an engineering schematic. It wasn’t telling you HOW to build one, it was telling you what it looked like. I suggest you being a pogrom against all history professors because you can lay money they don’t describe things in precise mathematical terms either. It’s not the PURPOSE of their instruction.
Please, stop spouting nonsense like this, it makes you look like an ignorant ass. Sort of like the guy in the previous talkback commenting on hard bicycle seats and evolution. Someone should have told him Lamarkism was discredited a hundred years ago.
@eltower: Good, because then I’m totally with you.
@frgough: And I say that saying the Bible doesn’t support evolution is just as silly as saying the the Bible says pi is 3. As a starter: where did the people in the city of Nod come from? Who was the mother and father of Cain’s wife? Who were the people God was protecting Cain from?
There’s too many faults in this argument for it to effectively be used. First, you’ve got the arguments regarding internal/external measurements. Plus, there’s this: pi isn’t equal to 3, but it’s also not equal to 3.141592654. You didn’t completely print the value of pi, just as the Bible didn’t. God wouldn’t have benefited humanity by telling us in 1000 B.C. that the value assigned to a theretofore nonexistent Greek letter is transcendental. That would’ve stolen Archimedes’ thunder 800 years later. Also, I would contend that “pi” is a man-made concept, and only useful to man-made mathematics (which describe the non-man-made world). It doesn’t have a unit, it’s simply a ratio. The ratio was always there, but it hasn’t always been useful, and it hasn’t always had a fancy Greek letter assigned to it.
Well if it’s in the bible then in must be true.
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs Dammit [...]
Timmy, I don’t claim to be the infallible word of God.
[...] is the correct venue for this. Suffice to say that I completely disagree with the idea of “God Said Pi=3” and another article on the same topic, sited by the other. Why don’t you site the [...]
…But what God was refering to in the Old Testament was just plain old apple pi. In the New Testament the Son of God gave us apple pi alla mode.
Too bad he didn’t replace the bulls too…All the methane from those bulls could be contributing to global warming.
Ah, there’s another nice approximation:
eπ - π = 20
or (if the above doesn’t come out nice)
ln(20 + pi) = pi
Approx .001% out.
Let’s remember that only wise men from the era of the bible are the only ones who can listen and interpret God. No so called “advancements” in science and spirituality should be accepted. So everybody sit down shut up, deal with your painfully oppressed lives (because suffering and sacrifice is good) and wait for the Jesus to come save you from it.
To make the stout claim that “God Said Pi = 3″ is a very ignorant and inaccurate assumption. There’s nowhere in the Bible that this is said. You merely make this assumption based on facts available, without realizing the difference between our finite world and an infinite constant.
“We cannot construct a perfect circle but we can compute the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of the perfect circle, pi, to a million or more decimal places with a very high certainty that we have done it correctly.”
http://www.mtnmath.com/pom.html
Could you please tell me where it says it is a perfect circle? Anything less than a perfect circle would make your argument groundless. It says “circular”. If we still are unable to construct a perfect circle, how could one have ever been constructed? For all we know, it could have been somewhat hexagonal, which would have fit the “circular” and “lily blossom” description as well as the measurements exactly.
Also, “pi” probably isn’t in the Bible because contemporary mathematical nomenclature didn’t exist when it was written. It is called “π” now because it is the first letter of the Greek word περιφέρεια (”periphery”).
This is beside the point, but don’t you think it would be a little unfathomable to have the infinite decimal representation of pi in a finite form? Or why would God feel people needed to know whether a measurement in a building plan was an infinite constant? I have yet to see any building blueprints showing pi as being infinite or grossly approximated beyond the decimal point and wouldn’t expect it to happen in the past. Your argument is irrelevant.
One other thing you gloss over is the fact that the circumference-pi formula was known in 950 BC, which is quite amazing to me. I find your argument very compelling, but fundamentally flawed when faced with reason.
pie equals yum
Bible thumping idiots and morons.
Travis, you are correct. The same can be said of the religious arguments against abortion, same-gender marriage, evolution, etc. Thanks for making the point obvious.
Ok moron. How exactly would the writer have described decimals to these simple people? Even better, since none of this was written in real time, how would that have been passed down?
Seriously, get the fuck over it. The bible isn’t suppossed to be literal…thats the point.
ITS A FUCKING STORY. Sure, maybe you can learn something from these stories, but to claim they got Pi wrong or the *whole* *world* was covered in water is just nit picking. Maybe it was *their* whole world that was covered in water. Was creation really literally 168 hours or was that just a way to explain the ELAPSE OF TIME?
Geez. Sometimes you guys are just as bad as the bible thumpers.
Please consider the basis of your argument, sir. You take a writers measurements that are approximations (e.g. cubit, handbreadth, etc.) and then try and disprove based on calculations not being exact.
Please remember that what you do to one side of an equation, you must do to both. So let’s replace “about” with +-.
+-30/+-10=+-3
If you want to replace the 3 with an exact figure, you will have to replace the 30 and 10 with exact numbers as well.
You can not state that this is “Cooking” or fixing the numbers. It is only applying mathmatical inteligence with regards to consistancy on both sides of the equation.
But yes, you are correct that if you remove the intelligence, your argument will stand.
Terrill Standifer
Why all those who want to interpret various ways that the Bible story might get us to 3.14…? What if the measurements are wrong, and other similar questions suggest that the words of the Bible are not exactly the truth. Just approximations of truth.
The point is, either the Bible is LITERALLY true, no interpretation necessary, because once that happens multiple interpretations can leave you with conflicting meanings, or that the Bible is not literal and we must bring our own reasoning and judgement to bear and that use that method to discern the truth.
Of course, the inconvenient thing about this for ID/Creationists, is that once we get multiple competing interpretations, how do we determine which, if any, is correct? Some of us use the scientific method. Others prefer to go based on revelation and what they’ve read from the Bible. I prefer the former, as it has been proven time and again to generate information that is predictable, repeatable, and therefore useful. The latter ultimately just leaves us with the “it’s God’s will” non-answer answer.
Ummm Pie…………[Homer]
@ My Mom:
“Seriously, get the fuck over it. The bible isn’t suppossed to be literal…thats the point.”
THANK YOU. That is the point. Now go get me a sandwich.
Regardless of the arguments for or against, you have to admit it is pretty funny.
Which bits of the bible are supposedly literal then? Surely it’s either all or none. It’s either a very bad story or the literal truth (sorry Truth). You can’t just pick and choose.
The bible never actually says that pi equals 3, that is nothing more than a misinterpretation. Visit http://www.recoveredscience.com/const303solomonpi.htm for the longer explanation of how ancient mathematics was much more accurate than it is typically given credit for.
@Brian: I fail to see how you equate geometry with moral issues. The Bible is clear about each of the items you presented anyways. Religious or not, there are such things as ethics in society and that is an entirely different discussion.
Let’s see:
As the writer for the Gospel of Reason, I contend the following of the Bible:
It’s a fantastic source of literary entertainment and a strong case can be made for biblical literacy in schools as a complement to English Literature lessons since a lot of English Literature owes its heritage to biblical influence.
In other words, it’s a great piece of fiction. Some people misguidedly choose to base their life on the assumption that it’s absolutely true. Other people pick and choose from pieces which are actually moral (or in some cases, not all that moral - the Catholic Church’s stance on sex and homosexuality is an example of misguided morals), and dismiss the obviously inane as mythology.
That’s great. But there’s a point when I take great offense in the book which is when it’s forced down my throat. I choose to read the Bible like I read Greek mythology. That certain lobbyists try to hijack the education system by infiltrating the Bible in, not as a source of literary study, but as a source of ‘moral and scientific’ rectitude (whatever that means) is what provokes me into pointing out clear (or not so clear) discrepancies in the whole biblical infallibility thing.
@Brian Actually, the Bible is pretty explicit with regards to same-sex relationships, both in the Old and New Testament. Two entire cities were destroyed because of their homosexual practices, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 speaks to the fact that homosexuals will not enter heaven.
@Stephen There’s nothing in the Bible that indicates that God didn’t create a whole large group of people that lived outside the Garden of Eden. There’s also nothing that indicates that Adam and Eve didn’t have children prior to Cain, Abel and Seth.
Because the purpose of the Bible is to instruct as to the way to receive eternal life, the people of Nod and Cain’s in-laws don’t really matter. It would be like needing backstory in EVERY book you read, regardless of its relevance to the purpose of the book.
Looking that intently serves only to detract from the message of salvation whose ground work was laid from the beginning.
[...] = 3. Lo pone en la Biblia Hoy vamos a ser un poco críticos después de leer éste post “God said Pi = 3; Stand by your beliefs dammit” o lo que sería lo mismo en cristiano “Dios dijo que Pi = 3; apoya tus creencias [...]
Evolutionists get more disparate every day. This “attack” if you can call it that, is a prime example of the logic employed by evolutionists.
The Bible is accurate in EVERYTHING, historical and scientific. The problem with your childish attack is that pi is an irrational number (a mathematical term which means it cannot be expressed as a fraction). If God were to give the actual values, the Bible would need an INFINITE number of pages to just write down the diameter or the circumference. Clearly, this is not practical. If the evolutionist would care to read more carefully he/she would see that the molten sea had a BRIM. It’s diameter is measured from one edge of the BRIM to the other, while the circumference is measured “round about” the sea _under_ the brim. Since God cannot lie (writing 3.1416 is NOT pi, it’s a shortened version we use for convenience), he expressed the dimensions of the sea using rational integers, easily understood by all. This, as with all alleged “contradictions” or “problems”, is not a problem at all, and, as is the case much of the time, is a failure in reading comprehension.
FYI - For a better idea of what exactly a “sea” is, here is the definition from Websters 1828 dictionary….
“1. A large bason, cisternor laver which Solomon made in the temple, so large as to contain more than six thousand gallons. This was called the brazen sea, and used to hold water for the priests to wash themselves. 1 Kings 7. 2 Chron. 4″
@eltower
“That certain lobbyists try to hijack the education system by infiltrating the Bible in, not as a source of literary study, but as a source of ‘moral and scientific’ rectitude (whatever that means) is what provokes me into pointing out clear (or not so clear) discrepancies in the whole biblical infallibility thing.”
Obviously, and I really am on your side with this one. But here’s the point. When you attack The Bible instead of the idiots who ram it down your throat with petty arguments like they missed a couple of decimal points, you only further their agenda.
By using your “superior intellect” to debunk The Bible’s version of Pi, you are merely flaunting your ignorance.
Honestly, I have a theory that traces all of this horse shit to one simple word….NUCULER.
ITS NUCLEAR YOU MORON! By letting that idiot get away with that we validated every half baked moron with some misguided opinion spewing “science” out of his ass.
Now clean your room.
Mom, I’d rather resort to intellectual debate than to ad hominem or personal attacks on ID proponents.
That I’m resorting to Pi = 3.0 is merely representative of the closed mindedness of the Creationist side. They’ve been trounced, over and over again to the point where I can only amuse myself further by watching their wigs spin as I use reductio ad absurdum attacks.
The root of the Nuculer problem is that the current, Websters, model of English semantics is incomplete and lacking in evidence. Websters changes all the time. When will it end?
Religious Buffoons:
Stay out of my schools and I’ll stay out of your church.
Deal?
Phoenician, could you just link to where you ripped that from instead please? I’d rather not have a comment column the length of Wyoming.
If thats the “craziest” thing you can dig up in the old testiment, you must be mildly retarded.
But if you insist on being mildly retarded I’ll give you a tardy treat and pat you on the head. You sure showed those people who believe in a higher power.
pi is usually written as 22/7ths. Even Egyptians from the Old Kingdom used 8/9 x 2, a value which is almost exactly 3.16 in decimal notation…
Perhaps cubits are like integers and there are no partial cubits, so this was the best approximation possible, lol. “The world has been defined using integer math, NO FLOATING POINT ALLOWED!”
Not a well-thought-out argument. This will make a great example for someone pushing the Bible as to why “science and atheism” is flawed, and how a postulation that’s claimed to be based on real facts instead of superstition or tradition can be shot down by its own methods.
If you look at the 2nd response from Dan, you will see that if the original language of the text is translated properly, the number referenced is 111, not 106, and thus we would get an approximation for pi that is more accurate than the one we use in classrooms today. Or one can reference the Phoenician’s insight about the inner rim and once again get a very close approximation which makes the whole Pi = 3 argument look a little silly.
I am truly sorry for anyone and for everytime that the Bible has been rammed down your thoat. In my belief that is not the purpose of the Bible, nor is it written to be an all encompassing scientific or historic textbook. It was written to convey messages, concepts, to the readers of its time, and to be used by those that follow to continue understanding those messages. The further removed we become from the time in which they were written, the more work and study has to be done to understand them by those of the current time.
There is a big difference in believing that the Bible is infallible in speaking to the purpose for which it was written (understanding of spiritual things) and believing it is trying to teach the calculus and nuclear physics in its pages.
If I pick up a book that is trying to teach me the correct usage of nouns and verbs, should I scour that book for mathematical knowledge? No. I should use it to learn about the subject about whch it was written to teach me. I understand that some claim the Bible can teach all things at once. But there are many of us who feel that is a misguided use of the Word. It is also misguided to try to force anyone to believe.
Ultimately, arguments like Pi=3 will change no one’s mind. There is probably some “misguided” in all of us… good luck!
@thiilguyin:
Religious buffoons in the US would probably go along with this compromise if they didn’t have to help pay for your schools.
hey thats good. FINALLY some way to get back at those damn scientists for all their lies and manipulations! they can have their damn computers, give me dogmatism!
@eltower (and HisMom)
Man. You guys are obviously looking at them same thing from different angles or different things from the same angle.
It is obvious to me, HisMom, that the author of this article CLEARLY was using satire and irony. Thereby, getting his point across more CLEARLY. The CLARITY of the tone of the article should have been CLEAR to you.
…(leaves)…
…(comes back)…
Oh, and eltower, get a life. Watch some soap opera or Dr Phil or something during the day. Trying to educate people always ends in tears, my boy.
Hi!
I liked your post! Very well written! It made me write an article dealing with this subject on my blog and my opinion on it, based on an ideea I had a while ago:
http://andreivajnaii.blogspot.com/2007/06/pi-is-not-constant-or-curvature-of.html
[...] God can’t do math Hey, neither can I! [...]
My translation states, “…it was round all about…”. Round does not equate to a circle. End of story. =)
And teh lord spakethz: “LOL”
The Bible also says we can have slaves from neighboring lands.
I want some hot Canandian girls.
’cause the Bible says so!
Really great post. You’ve got all those Bible-thumpers in a bind.
If they accuse you of it being just an artifact of the time (no decimal points yet) then you can come back and say that anything stated in the Bible is up for scrutiny by modern science.
If they come up with some convoluted explanation for why the Bible is infallible and that you’re deliberately misconstruing it by taking it literally to serve your own purposes then you can come back and say, “yeah, that’s what people do with the Bible, right?”
Great find.
I’d like to chime in to say that the Bible is not a science textbook. What I mean by that is that the Bible is a story that explains things to people in ways that they can understand them. I think for all intents and purposes with the Israelites, this approx. was good enough to convey a description of the temple. I do not believe the purpose of this description is to teach math.
With that being said, I think the crux of this argument is really on the measurement of a cubit. Because honestly, a cubit is not a standard measuring and is an approx in itself. Around the length of ones elbow to the tip of their finger. If the purpose of this description is to describe the temple of God then I think it was done well. You understand that the Sea was circular and in cubits it measured around 3 to 1 nothing wrong with that. I don’t think you need to bring repeating decimals into an approximation.
To all the people sending me to get a life: I bid you good luck on recovering from your sarcasm-ectomies.
I think My Dad got it pretty well.
Me esperaba de todo menos que me hablases en Español, te lo juro, ha sido como quedarme sentado como un tonto leyendo tu comentario.
Vamos, creo que es obvio el tema del creacionismo, es tan tremendamente absurdo el hecho de creer en la Biblia a pies juntillas que sólo y únicamente te podías referir a algo tan evidente como el creacinismo.
Lo único que te puedo decir es que como diría mi abuelo. Dejémoslos, son felices haciendo lo que hacen.
I couldn’t believe that your comment was in spanish, I didn’t even wait for you to leave a comment at all.
I think it’s so obvious that you are talking about creationism, It’s so unreal and odd to just believe the things that bible say by heart that you could only be referring to the most stupid of all biblical theories that I know. Creationism.
Well, the only thing that I could point out is the ol’ words of my granpa: Let them be, they are happy doing what they do.
Thanks for the comment, It is nice to know that I’m not a lonely mad guy and that so many other people think the way I do.
Suerte y nada, que te seguiré por la blogosfera
The simplest possible clash between the seemingly different worldviews of religion and science may be found in the value of pi. However, the Torah does not say pi = 3, TRANSLATIONS of the Torah say pi = 3.
I am sure that 99 % of the people reading about pi = 3 have never in their life ever seen an authentic Torah Scroll.
This url will take you to a line in Genesis VII.17
http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=1&chapter=8&verse=17&portion=2
The blue lines give the vocalization ” Kree ” and the black lines gives the text ” Ksiv”. If you look carefully at the third line from the end of the blue, second to last word from the end of the line you will see a little circle. Now go to the same word in the black and there is no circle. This is called a kree( apparent) /ksiv ( true)which means that the word is not read ( kree) the way it is written (ksiv). When you go to I Kings VII.23 there is a different kree/ ksiv.
In the Hebrew language letters have numerical equivaents and it comes out that the I Kings VII.23 gives the value of pi as 3 times 111/106. Thus the Torah agrees with modern science to four decimal places.
Also, the two stories of creation in Genesis 1:1-31 and 2:3-24 sharply differ in the use of two different verbs for the act of creation: “Va’yivra Elokim et ha’adam” (Genesis 1:27, And Elokim created [ex nihilo] the man) and “Va’yitser Havaya Elokim et ha’adam afar min ha’adama” (Genesis 2:7, And the L-rd G-d formed the man of dust of the ground). The concept of formation is clearly not ex nihilo.. Whereas the first account of creation is a creationist story, the second account is an evolutionary story.
The two accounts of creation unify the seemingly contradictory viewpoints of scientific creationism with evolutionary theory. In this unified view, macroevolution is clearly attributed to the Creator, whereas “formation,” the completion of the creative process described by science as microevolution, can be accounted for by natural selection. This Torah view of creation further shows that the major mutations that drive the evolutionary process are positive mutations, which act at the top of the evolutionary ladder (as opposed to the view of evolutionary theory, in which mostly negative mutations introduce variation from the bottom up).
The evolution of consciousness is the next major change operating at the forefront of the evolutionary process. As we become ever more conscious of the Creator, our faith in, and love for the Creator increase. Humans are G-d’s partners in the creative process, and the emergence of humans conscious of the continuous re-creation of the world ex nihilo anticipates the fulfillment of the purpose of creation.
Oh my! What did I do for light reading before the advent of blogs??? Thanks for conversation material for the next boring luncheon, wedding or dinner party.
This is great stuff!
Nice attempt, and funny to boot, but unfortunately the others are correct in that the argument has made an illogical jump from approximations to exactitude on only one side of the equality.
And it is strange that so many atheists should spend so much time fighting the christians, when according to their separate world-views, only the latter has a real interest in the other. It plays into the christian world-view, and doesn’t really accomplish much for the other side, however fun the intellectual acrobatics might be.
[...] Regular Schedule Kicks In Again Before any more armchair theologians pummel my article on Biblical Pi, allow me to elucidate on the reasons why I tackled it this [...]
I cannot imagine this debate taking place anywhere except in America. God bless America. How come time is GMT ?
Pierre JC Allard
I always hear 22/3. Try 355/113.
The Gospel of Reason runs on GMT +1, which is the geographical location of its writer.
…. God is so cool he keeps sending newer and newer versions of his book to keep up with it. You want to believe in God and his PI=3 very welcome you are. You want to stop teaching ur kids “science” very welcome you are. You would probably want to go sit under a tree and wait for your nirvana, while i go get a red-bull and do what i do best, and what i like best … explore and appriciate the beauty of God so great who doesnt need to send newer and newer versions of his books … especially written by … well we know who!
Given the definition of a cubit:
“An ancient form of measure, equivalent to the length from a Pharaoh’s elbow to the farthest fingertip of his extended hand.”
…I don’t think the writer of Kings was striving for mathematical precision. Therefore:
He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring about ten Pharaoh forearm lengths from rim to rim about five Pharaoh forearm lengths high. It took a line of about thirty Pharaoh forearm lengths to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it - about ten to a Pharaoh’s forearm lengths. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea. The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths.
So,
3 and about 1/14th a Pharaoh’s forearm length = Pi = silly.
Who cares what the actual value of a cubit is? We’re talking about a ratio…
The unit is on both sides of the equation and cancels out, much like the factor of 10, so it’s really a question of measurement precision and accuracy. It could be “about 18 inches” or “about 42 light years”…
Let c be the measurement of a Cubit.
30c = 10c * Pi (divide both sides by 10)
3c = 1c * Pi (divide both sides by c)
3 = Pi
Pi = 3 no matter how you cut it, as long as the subject is consistent with measurements. Since God isn’t capable of screwing up, you’d expect him to get such a simple measurement right.
And besides, this is the word of God we’re talking about, so it doesn’t matter who wrote it down. If you can’t trust the people who wrote it down, then you can’t trust any of it.
BTW, this was in the top 10 Doggdot.us section of my iGoogle homepage. Nice read. Good job. Pi is delicious.
good going tho… i love the satire.
teh ishoo has ben delt wif:
http://loljesus.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/227thz/
Oh yeah, one more thing… it is a part of Christianity to spread the word of God to the non-believers.
In this way, it is much like a virus.
If the influence of Christianity in our governmental affairs (education, etc.) continues I will end up home schooling my children and possibly moving to a less fanatical country.
Great post!! I’m with you on everything. All these pussnuts who give a crap about π and the Bible need to go back and actually read the bible, paying special attention to the NEW TESTAMENT, not the Old Testament where God is some kind of ego maniacle wrathmeister. If that doesn’t cool you out then read up on your Joseph Campbel, at the very least rent “The Power Of Myth”. Try actually gaining enlightenment from research, not Jerry Fallwell.
Now, on to more important things, how can I get a certain family member of mine to stop badgering me about certain religious issues, when I’ve made it perfectly clear that I am not a “believer”?? SRSLY, it never ends. Just when I think its stopped, another EMAIL comes in!! I’m being belittled and hounded by EMAIL, not the phone, not a hand written letter, but EMAIL!! NO, I cannot just tell this person to go f*ck themselves, and NO I can’t just have a rational discussion. Remember, this person has a case of sanctimonious asshatery that boarders on madness. Any ideas? Please??
Oh BTW this article gets my personal seal of approval:
sure hope you allow a little basic html… :/
guess not
Interesting. I just wrote a blog on this too.
http://paintingfaith.wordpress.com/
Actually I pointed people to an article about this topic which made a pretty good argument.
I think the thing that I find most compelling is not whether or not the Bible is infallible, but all the people who believe that their particular interpretation of what they think the Bible says is infallible.
With all the different interpretations and translations, I think we’ll have more than a few disappointed people at the pearly gates. I’d go as far to say all people, but that’s another entry I’m cooking up for my own blog.
cheers!
A standing ovation is in order. Not in defense or offense to any of the previous commentary or dissertation, but I must say. This is far more than a slice of logic and a rather meaningful notion toward something greater than itself–call it what you will. Education is meant to be salvation from most darknesses but in some cases, it is the clause of the inferior.
Bravo, my good man.
faith is about spirit, not numbers
wow, this is briliant!
faith is about spirit, but it doesn’t justify ignorance towards numbers
cool
Idle minds are the devil’s workshop.
Numbers are real
[...] God Said Pi = 3; Stand By Your Beliefs D$#$@# - Gospel of Reason [...]
[...] Get the whole scoop here… [...]
a cubit is a unit of measure =~ an arms length
if people were measuring in tens of arms, i doubt they particularly cared if it went all they way to joe bob’s finger tip or his wrist. It’s called rounding, and also significant figures, get with the program.
p.s. pi’s are square, piEs are round.
Sounds to me like God is a physics teacher.
By the way, circular in shape != a perfect circle. I have a tire on my car that is circular in shape, but the weight of my car makes my tired buckle at the bottom, so my tire’s average diameter in relation to its circumference could very well be closer to 3 than 3.14.
Interesting article, but it seems (to a person who does place value on the authority and truth of the Bible) to be a bit misguided. Have you proven that according to this passage Pi is misrepresented? Yes. But for people who regard the Bible as having both literary and moral value, it won’t do much to dissuade. After reading this passage, I’m not thinking to myself “Huh. I guess Pi really does equal 3.0 because that’s what’s written here.” It’s more like “Alright, so the writer was approximating dimensions.” Not all Christians are literalists, fundamentalists, or strict conservatives. The relevant message of the Bible is found in the New Testament (let’s avoid a Council of Nicea debate if we can), not in the rough dimensions of various structures found in the Old Testament.
donquixote…I know it’s aggravating. Your family member obviously cares about you and great deal and is convinced that their way is best. I know it’s a tough situation, just try to be patient with them and remember what their motivation is.
GET.
A.
LIFE.
You’re only a few weeks into summer break and you’re out of beer already?
I keep hearing this idea that people have no meaning as an inherent part of Atheism, which is simply not true. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. Nihilism is the idea that people and things have no worth and that we are just atoms and dust on slightly larger balls of dust and atoms. You are confusing the two. There is such a thing as meaning without God, and it is not at all hard to find. Being a Nihilist and an agnostic, it irritates me to hear people build this huge link between Nihilism and Atheism. The two are not mutually inclusive, nor exclusive, you can be both, or you can be neither, or one or the other. Just like any ideology pretty much. I could be very religious and yet believe in evolution, its not hard at all to be multidimensional, it’s almost automatic.
Ignorance at its finest. You’re eliminating reason in favor of faith in a favor of the translation of a decrepit ancient book, supposedly written by god, even though this is untrue and absurd - much like yourself.
As a non-athiest, I still gotta say, beautiful.
Religion is worthless.
Pi is a theoretical constant which is the ratio of the circumference of a perfect circle to its diameter. No circle on Earth can actually have this ratio, and if you computed this ratio for a circle you drew, you’d get probably 3.148, or 3.107, or something close to ‘pi’ but not exact. So, it is very likely that this (real life) bowl had a ratio of 3, because it wasn’t a theoretical circle, it was only (as the passage states) “circular in shape”.
Using you’re logic, you could never show someone a circle, because as soon as you did, I’d show you that the ratio of its circumference to diameter didn’t equal ‘pi’, but that it equaled 3.146 or something ‘close’ to pi.
GOD it’s nice to see that other’s don’t think the bible is to be taken literally. It’s a compilation (I almost said copulation…that’s funny) of stories to explain the unknown, written by MEN. Men are fallible and pretty dumb. Now, if it were written by WOMEN, then it would be a completely different story… not that I have anything against men. I like men, they are cute.
The religious fanatics will wet their panties when they read this. LOL
a book that (supposedly) teaches love but NEVER fails to bring out the blood lusting hounds.
What is the bible?
I know that this is not very funny but it is something you should think about you know before you start writing your next hate speech.
This supposed proof is wholly flawed. If you measure the inner circumference as 30, then the Biblical pi is only off by 0.00205:
http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm
I am by no means a Biblical literalist, or even a Christian (though most Christians aren’t Old Testament literalists, anyway), but this is just lame. I mean, who has ever claimed pi = 3?
I see a major flaw in your argument. (As a disclaimer, I do believe the Bible to be absolute in its authority and correctness in all manners.) It says, “…circular in shape….” It doesn’t say, “a perfect circle.” Pi applies to a perfect circle; I think we have all described something “circular in shape” that wasn’t a perfect circle. Therefore, it isn’t too hard to surmise that this “pi” might have come up a bit short of the 3.14….number seeing as it wasn’t necessarily a perfect circle. Faith may not be about numbers, but it is about God always being right. If we can’t count on that, then what’s the point. God is not bound by time (He’s infinite) or by space (He’s omnipresent) or by knowledge (He’s omniscient). Therefore, why don’t you give it up to Him that just because you think a circumstance turned out “wrong,” there may be some part of the equation that you don’t (or can’t) see that, indeed, makes that event RIGHT because you are limited by all 3 of the items listed above (time, space, knowledge) and He isn’t. You are crazier than you think I am (for believing in the Bible) if you think you have to be able to understand something before it can make sense. There are great and wonderous things that happen everyday that you’ll never be able to wrap your brain around that make perfect sense to a multitude of people (Christian Bible toting and heathen alike) because of their perspective, etc. Grow up. Existence goes far beyond you and your brain.
Reading comprehension people!
The author is pointing out the hypocrisies displayed by those who believe in Biblical Infallibility.
All the arguments attempting to debunk the author’s math are irrelevant. The Bible SAYS, specifically, that the ratio of a circle is 30:10 cubits.
As soon as you start attempting to INTERPRET what is literally written to match 3.14 you have forfeited your belief in Biblical Infallibility along with any other claims based on it.
The author could have used any one of a large number of examples displaying inconsistencies and his point would still stand. I personally like this one, but that’s a matter of taste.
The author is not bashing any believers out there, he’s simply asking you to not be hypocrites!
Pi is more rational than a theist.
It’s amazing how many bible-thumpers totally missed the point here. The writer’s argument is not weak at all. It’s targeted at the people who claim the Bible is the LITERAL, infallible truth. (Many Christians don’t take the Bible literally, and maybe they’re the ones missing the point.) If the Bible is the literal, infallible truth, then how can it claim that the ratio of circumference to diameter is 3?
Either:
1. The Bible has an approximation in it (making it no longer the literal truth)
or
2. pi *is* equal to three.
Which is it?
[...] Fort heureusement, en 2007, les vieilles doctrines n’enflamment que les cervelles qui s’en imprègnent au lieu des corps des sages, comme il fut jadis coutume. Rions donc avec l’auteur anonyme qui nous prouve que π=3, selon la très sainte Bible. [...]
For the Christians that have a problem with this, I offer..
Consider the vast amount of religions that came before yours and it will prove likely that the Bible simply cannot be the only source you consider for accuracy in the world.
Christianity came along much later than many other religions, which are still going strong, and have adapted to the world we live in. If you close your eyes to scientific advancements because of the doctrine taught in the Bible, then you are only limiting your own education. That is the point of the article.
Let us instead take the teachings of great leaders, such as Christ, or Buddha and have them serve as a guide to our conduct in the advancement of science and this world.
A mind closed to possibilities will only limit you, not the world around you.
Although I agree with your underlying principle, that science is more important than religion in school (and hard facts always outweigh superstition), your argument has some serious problems.
First, you’re quoting from the Tanakh, which is a Jewish document, not a Christian one (regardless of what Christians may believe). Since it is a Jewish document, you should defer to Jewish understanding of it from which you will learn that only the Torah, the first five books, are considered to be the literal word of G-d. Thus, Kings was not written by G-d and is thus subject to approximation and error.
Furthermore, even if Torah is the literal word of G-d (something which I am neither trying to prove nor disprove here), that doesn’t mean that it can’t be allegorical or mythological. In other words, it isn’t what’s written that’s meant to be taken literally but it’s what you might learn from it. Kind of like a puzzle: the reality of it isn’t necessarily in what you see, it’s what you don’t see.
Anyway, this is just another way of looking at it. As I wrote, I’m with you in your motive, it’s just that your tactics are reactionary, sensationalist, not well researched, and a little bit hypocritical. But, by all means, don’t stop trying.
THANK YOU TYCHO
“As soon as you start attempting to INTERPRET what is literally written to match 3.14 you have forfeited your belief in Biblical Infallibility along with any other claims based on it.
The author could have used any one of a large number of examples displaying inconsistencies and his point would still stand. I personally like this one, but that’s a matter of taste.
The author is not bashing any believers out there, he’s simply asking you to not be hypocrites!”
It’s like reading my thoughts exactly.
And could we please put a stop to the personal attacks? It’s kind of making me uneasy. I’m not on summer break, incidentally. I still have one or two exams and essays left.
Gospel of Reason:
You are going to hell for being fucking retards.
God (dad of Jesus)
Haha, faggot ass christians.
I find this highly amusing. The fact that people actually wasted their breath trying to point out how invalid your argument was just validates its tongue in cheek style. Of course the Bible didn’t exactly represent PI, hence why it would be just an approximation. The fact that people actually believe that you are trying to debunk the Bible using this really amuses me as well.
How do people miss the fact that you are mocking them for taking other things so literally? It boggles my mind. They get so caught up with the fact that it “may be an attack on the Bible by an atheist” that they don’t even notice the sarcasm. This is really too funny. Not just the article. That was the beginning. I really loved the comments. I agree with the writer totally. The ultra-religious types need to learn and laugh at how silly they are.
I mean seriously how many times has religion been right over science? I think the problem is science seeks truth in the natural world. Religion runs around screaming about beliefs. Scientists (and people of a rational mindset) will admit they were wrong. We used to think heat was a fluid…seriously that is pretty dumb(at least now). Religious people won’t admit they are wrong. They scream about faith. What about just being good to each other? I love you, why can’t you love me for who I am?
So…I guess you don’t care about the precision or a cubit or significant digits. Technically, 30 and 10 each only have 1 significant digit, meaning that even if it said 31 cubits the proper answer for 31/10 is still 3 (if you care about precision).
The most sensible explanation is that the cubits lengths given are whole cubits and therefore approximations. It’s the same way that you might say a pitch is 30 yards long when in fact it is 29 yards and a bit.
http://www.angelfire.com/my/elliott83/BiblePi.html
A very interesting one I’ve heard, was that the author did not have a flexible tape measure but instead he probably had a few stiff measuring rods in various lengths, one of them being 5 cubits long. If you measure the circumference of a circle of which the diameter is 10 units with a stiff rod that is 5 units long, you can fit 6 of them in (and 6 x 5 units = 30 units). (sorry, can’t find the URL of it right now, but it’s fairly self-explanatory).
“The Bible SAYS, specifically, that the ratio of a circle is 30:10 cubits.”
No it doesn’t. It doesn’t say that at all.
“The Bible SAYS, specifically, that the ratio of a circle is 30:10 cubits.”
Wrong, the bible says that someone made a bowl and measured it with their forearm (a cubit) and found that it’s ratio 30 forearms to 10 forearms. It does not say all circles are a ratio of 3:1.
Clearly they should have recorded the infinite digits of pi. I mean how could they round down by 1 forearm??? I can’t beleive they ignored the .14159169 additional forearms (finger joint?)!!!! Math does not allow rounding! Science forbids rounding!!!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGEEEEEEE!!!!
Oh wait, this is the dumbest arguement I’ve ever seen.
frgough said: “Especially since a cubit is ABOUT 18 inches, and it was a general description of something, not an engineering schematic. It wasn’t telling you HOW to build one, it was telling you what it looked like.”
Well too bad for Noah then, considering God gave him instructions in cubits. That sucks. (But there’s a movie coming out about it, so we’ll get The Rest of the Story.
)
Shall we perhaps (as my children would say) “get real”? The Bible is not a scientific document anymore than it is a history text in the way a work by, say, Bruce Catton would be. It’s a religious text and should be approached as such. If the authors of a text not intended to be a scientific text choose to describe an object with less-than-scientific precision, where is the issue? I don’t see it. (Let’s also realize that you are dealing with an English translation of a Hebrew text and the numbers are rather different in the Hebrew reading … but someone else has already addressed that.)
I am a Christian. Hence, I do believe the Bible is factual and the word of God. However, I also believe in the modern value of pi. I respect your beliefs, but in my studies, I have learned to take a more latent approach to reading the Bible. Perhaps the cubits were spaced evenly along the circumference? Perhaps the Bible is written such that there exist sometimes misleading and misunderstood verses, a result of common, day-to-day approximations/estimates? I mean, 0.14 of a cubit doesn’t seem a likely measure in Biblical times, eh?
Considering a cubit is an approximate measurement, this makes you look really dumb and pretentous. Rounding off to the nearest unit is the only solution when using approximate units. Carrying something to the 5th decimal place implies that level of measuring accuracy, when in fact you can not achieve it with an approximate unit. You, Sir, show your ignorance by spouting how the whole bible is false based on data that proves just one thing. That you are a troll scouring an old book for flaws to stir up controversy.
“Either:
1. The Bible has an approximation in it (making it no longer the literal truth)”
You should read the link I posted. If you measure the inner circumference, which makes sense given the rule of thumb methods used back then, it is accurate to .002. Even if you don’t, we’re talking about CUBITS. We are talking about inherently approximate methods of measurement. If I say that I drank five glasses of water, they don’t have to be the same size for me to be LITERALLY correct. Get it?
I don’t believe the Old Testament is the literal truth. And almost no Christians do. But I am not a Christian. I am, however, disturbed by poor argumentation no matter who it’s coming from.
Zack, this isn’t the “dumbest argument around.” Instead, you responded to one of his claims: You admitted the Bible used rounding, and you’re admitting the Bible, therefore, isn’t the absolute, literal truth.
@Anthony Gregory:
The simple fact that there is no agreement upon whether the Bible is or is not describing a circle, should be evidence enough that it is not infallible.
@Zack:
I agree.
Why are people who don’t believe in God so /angry/ about it?
“You can either accept that the word of God is fallible and men have improved upon it, therefore casting into doubt your claims of Creation.”
How about this: God gave His Word to mankind, who over thousands of years of oral history, and at least three total changes of language and resulting translation. Things are BOUND to get a little messed up each time it’s retold, just by simple forgetting, and purposeful alteration.
PS: I’m a Christian who also believes in science (eg evolution, physics, astronomy) and doesn’t find a conflict between that and religion.
@frgough:
He’s not talking about Lamarckism you hick. Hard bicycle seats damage sterility. He was talking about “cleansing the gene pool.”
Have you ever tried to draw a perfect circle? The ratio of Pi assumes a perfect circle. I guarantee the basin described in Kings was not perfectly round at the size mentioned.
Now look at this as if you were an author. Would you write that the diameter was 9.54929659 cubits or would you just say basically 10? Your editor would approve of you using 10 and so did God. It’s not like this was an indepth math lesson.
@AndrewMoyer
Your numerology is blasphemous! Ain’t nuthin’ in the bible ’bout no algebra! You’s must be in kahootz with the devil!
Rev. Spaminator, Keeper of the Chainsaw of BoB, Commander of the Legions of St. Ash, Exile from the Palace of the Milk Dawg, Founder of the Bastard Children of the Immaculate Conception.
Repent your satanic ways and find a more profitable faith! Collect donations in the name of Jesus, BoB, Eris, or the FSM! *
*Make sure your foundation has all the tax stuff set up and aren’t violating any federal, state or municipal laws. (i.e. copyright, arms, mass suicide, polygamy, etc…
FNORD!
Choas — I live only a couple miles from the new Creation Museum. I’ve met many Christians who agree with you, and many other Christians, unfortunately, who would disagree. Around here there are many, many Christians who do not believe the Bible was in any way corrupted whatsoever, even after translations. They believe the Bible is 100% literal, absolute truth. The problem I have is these people are fighting against Science and ultimately teaching children not to trust science, and, unfortunately, are managing to get their beliefs into the schools and in the science classrooms. As a father of a little boy approaching Elementary School age, I find that incredibly disturbing, and it upsets me that I may have to start the “un-learning” if he is taught things by these people that are scientifically wrong. That’s where my own personal frustration comes from.
“Because the purpose of the Bible is to instruct as to the way to receive eternal life…
Kristin - June 13th, 2007 at 6:23 pm”
So eternal life is a reasonable proposition?
You sure stirred up the nutters there eltower.
They are in full repeatomatic mode about this bit of humor you presented.
Excellent work!
The ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius (pi) is 3.1415926……only on a flat plane. It’s different if you draw the circle on the surface of, for example, a sphere.
So we cannot prove that the value of pi stays the same over long periods of time. This is because we cannot prove that the local curvature of space-time has remained constant.
Also, if the universe is a fractal and has fractional dimensionality, then there could easily be not 3 spacial dimensions, but pi (or some other figure) spacial dimensions. It could be that when you measure pi, you are just measuring the fractal dimensionality of the universe.
So don’t be too sure about the constancy of math constants. The more we know, the more we realise how little we know, and how wonderous the universe is.
I’ve just remembered a sentence about God and Numbers…
“God is real… unless it´s imaginary”
I’ve always had the feeling that modern circles were in some way “mocking” me. Why can’t we just return to the good old days where the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle is just 3!!
I detect the hand of the DEVIL in these modern physical ratios, trying to confuse us with his diabolical non-whole numbers and soft fleshy trigonometry enticing us to perform unusual circular motions!
“I don’t believe the Old Testament is the literal truth. And almost no Christians do.”
Unfortunately, some Xtians do … and they use these ideas to damage and endanger other people’s lives.
So if most Xtians don’t want to be associated with them, they need to loudly and publicly DISAVOW that ignorance.
John Murray dixit:
The ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius (pi) is 3.1415926……only on a flat plane. It’s different if you draw the circle on the surface of, for example, a sphere.
Hahahahahaaaaa… the most funiest thing on this page!
I’m sure you are a creationist…
This is the funniest thing I’ve seen today! The measurements to Noah’s ark were way off as well if you will note. It was exactly .000093 cubits longer than reported. I will be neat to see if we have more precise measurements later…
I barely have enough faith to believe in Christianity, I think it’s great that there are those with much more faith and can actually believe in evolution and stuff,
, talk about a fairy tale! Even more so to be an Atheist, to claim infinite knowledge of the universe and be able to say “I know there is no God”.
Those of you who can say that, never let a Christian or any other say you are without faith for you have many times more faith than even the greatest religious person of all faiths.
@Chaos Motor
“Why are people who don’t believe in God so /angry/ about it?”
I’m not angry about not believing in God. I’m angry about others shoving their beliefs down my throat. I’m angry about logic and rational thought being replaced by faith and dogma. I’m angry about every innocent person who suffers because of the faith of someone else.
@Heath:
IMO: To say “there is no God” takes EXACTLY the same amount of faith as to say “there is God”.
I guess that’s why I’m an agnostic